Author Topic: AZ Controller and Novation Automap [explained what is possible]  (Read 5763 times)

Offline kwild

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AZ Controller and Novation Automap [explained what is possible]
« on: October 09, 2014, 02:28:34 AM »
Very interesting stuff,mate!What about full Novation Automap functionality (including display) without the need to wrap the plug-ins that causes a lot of instability with Sonar?Furthermore Novation support it's crap as ever and i doubt any further developement for Automap that seems a dead product so your plug-in can have also some commercial appeal if well developed.
My best wishes and greetings from Italy.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 05:38:56 PM by azslow3 »

Offline azslow3

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Re: AZ Controller and Novation Automap.
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2014, 02:02:23 PM »
Automap devices are not MIDI devices. That means either some driver has to present the device as normal MIDI controller or my plug-in should contact Novation driver directly.

Novation has never published anything about it's proprietary protocol. So the only way is RE. There are some attempts in the Linux world to write such a driver. In any case, the result is in the "gray zone".

I have only Nocturne, but I impression is that they use crap components to build "hi end" (in price) devices. I think good Nocturne price is about $10, not $100 they ask... May be other devices are better, I do not have them.

Taking these arguments into account, I do not want to invest my time into Novation products.


Cakewalk ACT plus my plug-in can already do everything Automap can, even better. There is no display yet, but it is in long term plans (feedback support should come before that happens).

Offline kwild

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Re: AZ Controller and Novation Automap.
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2014, 03:13:46 PM »
Well i know automap uses a driver to work,but im talking about a way to get rid off automap software and all novation crap and drivers and use your plugin.
If you can implement a simple way to assign controllers to midi parameters and also a way to edit the Novation's SL/Zero cntrollers display (a way to properly rename for example the CC1 on the controller lcd display as CUTOFF and so on for the others and also updated by the proper value as is in the controlled plugin).
I've try your plugin for just few minutes,i've loaded a vst plugin and i saw that the parameters of the vst are recognized by your plugin in the ACT panel.I've also insert another VST and i saw that the parameters displayed in ACT properly changes to accomodate the selected plugin.I've try to assign a knob on the vst to a physycal knob of my SL61MK2 (in midi mode,not automap) but i can't catch how to do (midi CC are correctly received by AZ Controller).

Offline azslow3

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Re: AZ Controller and Novation Automap.
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2014, 02:18:30 PM »
I warn at many placed, my plug-in is not something you can use without reading the documentation  ;)

For example, to control one ACT parameter:
  • Check ACT panel to see what the parameter it, let say S3 (Slider number 3) (that you have seen)
  • Configure hardware slider to send some recognized MIDI (you write you see it)
  • Configure the hardware in Plug-in:
    • Add "Hardware control", type "Slider", name "S1" (Options panel)
    • Assign the MIDI to it (switch to "Hardware" panel, select "S1" in Hardware Control, move the hardware slider, press "Attach", then "Assign MIDI")
  • Say what you want to control (switch to "Logic" panel, move the slider to see "S1" in the Logic Control). Add 2 new Actions: "ACT:Slider:3" and "Value:Direct:Linear"

It sounds like crazy complicated, but it is not. Flexibility was the goal of the system. Related to  this example: Plug-in get only MIDI code, it can not "see" which control send it. But the same control can send different MIDI codes, depending from its current preset/mode. Also many hardware controls can send the same MIDI... "Good" plug-in should be able to use that information. For example, some slider was set to the value 15 when it was sending CC1. It then was switched to send CC2. New movement is to position 16. If plug-ins "knows" it is still the same slider, it knows the slider was moved "up", even in case CC was changed. And that can be used for the logic! That is why in my plug-in there are "Hardware control", "Context (for Hardware Control)" and "Logical Control" and not just "Control".

You can select X parameters and do Y different things with them. That is why actions to select the parameter and modify selected parameter are separated. Also just Y alone is handy: "fine" adjustments for whatever parameter was controlled last time is possible that way.

As I wrote already, "feedback" is in planing stadium. That should open a way to update displays, highlight rings, move sliders, etc on almost any controller with MIDI support (original plan is to implement simple indication, MCP and HUI, but the list can be extended). Once it is done, I can start to think about the user friendly view, a kind of what ACT MIDI plug-in / Automap View do, but flexible.

Offline kwild

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Re: AZ Controller and Novation Automap.
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2014, 04:50:55 PM »
Thank you Azslow,i've managed to do some more accurate testing today.
I've mapped just first 3 knobs on my Novation Sl61,with two VST plugins.
The purpose was to use my first 3 physical knobs of my SL61 to control the first 3 physicals knobs in the GUI of that 2 plugins.
First 3 virtual knobs in the GUI in order from left to right 1,2,3 :

UAD DBX 160 - knob 1-S1=Tresh , knob 2-R1=COMP , knob-3-S2=OUT

Softube Tube-Tech CL1b - knob 1-S1=Gain , knob-2 S2=Ratio , knob-3 S3=tresh

As you can see the knob 3 in the UAD DBX-160 match the knob 2 in the CL-1B so when i move the second
physical knob when focusin on DBX-160 i'll change OUT but when i move the 2nd physical knob in my SL61 when focusin on CL-1B i'll change RATIO.Can you imagine that's not the right way to work.
Maybe there's a way to make an exclusive map "per plugin" so they will be recall every time i focus on it,or it's completely useless for me.
Furthermore every time i leave a physical knob and pick another i saw that the last virtual knob value changes randomly as i pick the new physical knob and move it.After that strange change of value the prev virtual knob stay as is it and don't will be affected no more by the movement of the new physical knob.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 08:43:01 PM by kwild »

Offline azslow3

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Re: AZ Controller and Novation Automap.
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2014, 11:23:01 PM »
As you can see the knob 3 in the UAD DBX-160 match the knob 2 in the CL-1B so when i move the second
physical knob when focusin on DBX-160 i'll change OUT but when i move the 2nd physical knob in my SL61 when focusin on CL-1B i'll change RATIO.Can you imagine that's not the right way to work.
Maybe there's a way to make an exclusive map "per plugin" so they will be recall every time i focus on it,or it's completely useless for me.
I assume you use ACT mapping (not direct plug-in control). Each plug-in has own ACT mapping in SONAR, and that mapping can be changed (so for example in any plug-in with Gate, it is controlled by S2). Please read ACT section in the documentation (I do not want retype it here) and about ordering bug (linked from there). Other way is to select different parameters with conditions, but changing the map is more general solution (will work in ACT MIDI and does not require separate action for each plug-in).

Quote
Furthermore every time i leave a physical knob and pick another i saw that the last virtual knob value changes randomly as i pick the new physical knob and move it.After that strange change of value the prev virtual knob stay as is it and don't will be affected no more by the movement of the new physical knob.
That sounds like a bug. Can you write your action list for the knobs so I can reproduce it or is it just  "ACT:Slider:3" and "Value:Direct:Linear" ? Please assign yet another slider (let say S4), but do not put any Actions on it. Open "Overview" tab. Move let say S1. Look what the reaction was (on the "Overview" tab). Move S4 now. Is something changed (I mean some virtual knob and/all executed action list)?
Thanks in advance, and sorry for the bug... The program is complicated and there was no "beta testers" :(

EDIT: I have just created simple configuration with 3 ACT rotaries like "ACT:RX" "Value:Direct:Linear", and I could not reproduce the "jump" in the last controlled knob. At the same time, I remember that in some early version I have seen my knob was controlling something not expected. I could not reproduce that either, I will be happy in case you can "pin down" the problem.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2014, 11:48:21 PM by azslow3 »