SysEx messages all mapping to ctrl 85

[Linzmeister]

I quit Sonar
Installed b332.
Started Sonar and loaded test project Sonar crashed. 
Uninstalled AZ controller through windows control panel and started sonar.  It complained about the missing CS.DLL but opened the test project.  I deleted or checked that no control surface was in prefs and closed Sonar.
Re-install b332 and restarted Sonar.  Added AZ Plugin to prefs.  loaded test preset and got an exception error and captured a dump file.  Do you want the dump file?? 3,198KB


b330  observations..
I can only start recording automation on a fresh track in overwrite mode if I go into the automation lanes and hit the write enable in there.  I am sure that is a CW thing

After some time , I accidentally made the scenario you mentioned where the Automation envelope was rising very slowly over several seconds.

Edit
The faders on these tracks couldn't be adjusted as the motors were engaged.
/edit

 So I recorded 1 minute silence on 3 tracks and manual wrote a volume envelop to decrease 0.2db on each track over the duration of the minute. 
I set track 1 to Touch Mode, 2 to Overwrite, 3 to Latch.
Touch and Latch modes couldn't overwrite this section, but overwrite mode could.  I found that by turning off READ Automation all 3 modes could overwrite the existing automation.

If the written automation line between 2 nodes is completely flat ie, both nodes are at the same value, any automation mode could overwrite successfully.

At one point I deleted all the tracks and inserted new ones to completely remove all automation data..  the WAI disappeared.  I deleted control surface plugin from prefs and added it back in, selected the preset and WAI came back.

With the operational discoveries I can see this preset working quite well.

[azslow3]

I quit Sonar
Installed b332.
Started Sonar and loaded test project Sonar crashed.

Agrr... I am really sorry. My last "subtle change" had a bug and was crashing sonar. Please download b333.
I normally test in my FakeSonar first (I have my own "Control Surfaces Host" application, it startup way faster then real Sonar), then with Sonar X2 (32bit) and then Sonar Platinum (64bit). But not always, especially during "rapid development".

You can install any version of AZ Controller over any other version, I mean you do not have to reinstall or remove it from Sonar preferences. Setup is prepared for that, it will not pollute your system nor leave old files. Uninstaller is also true "restless". I like such programs, so I prefer my programs also behave good.

I can only start recording automation on a fresh track in overwrite mode if I go into the automation lanes and hit the write enable in there.  I am sure that is a CW thing

Yes, CW way. Without real touch and when you have continuously changing parameter, only "overwrite" and "disable read automation" will allow you to overwrite now. We will add "global motor off" later (in fact it is already in the preset, you was using it during the first test, but we do not have a button yet to change it from Yama).

At one point I deleted all the tracks and inserted new ones to completely remove all automation data..  the WAI disappeared.  I deleted control surface plugin from prefs and added it back in, selected the preset and WAI came back.

WAI can disappear... Sonar bug. Usually reloading the project and sometimes closing/opening the view or Reloading Surface preset return it. At most Sonar restart. No reason to delete surface.

With the operational discoveries I can see this preset working quite well.

Fine. We can move to buttons. Let start with strip "Solo" buttons. From pictures I guess they have LED.
You can use AZ Controller "Last MIDI Event" instead of MIDIOx to see what is going on. But it shows only the "last" event, so if several events are triggered by one operation, that is not visible.

For Solo button on Channel 1:
Which message is sent when you press it?
Is additional message is sent when you release it?
Is the message is still the same when you press it the second time?
Is LED is automatically switched On when you press it?

Then I will also need the message for Channel 2 and Master channel (I guess Channels 3 ... 15/16 follow the same rules as 1,2)

[azslow3]

I have updated the plug-in to b335 and attach yet another test preset. It does things differently, I had some thoughts how to organize things better for the future.  But the result should be the same as in preset 5. And so no intensive testing required.

[Linzmeister]

thank you..

I won't try to do anything with it tonight.  I have just spent several hours tonight capturing the wrong data - the 01V has 3 LCD menu options that control soloing, and after deciding on a particular combination of settings, I then proceeded to capture with one option incorrectly set giving me different midi data output...   

I have got to call it quits for the night now.
I have a couple of things happening this weekend (yes midnight has just rolled over into Friday morning here).  I don't know how much time I will get in the studio to test or collate data.  I will do what I can, but it may be Monday night my time before you hear from me again...

[azslow3]

Sorry that I a kind of forced you to waste your time...
We can continue when you are ready, Monday next week or Monday a month later. There is obviously no deadline. If someone else want it faster, he/she can join the development 

[Linzmeister]

oh no, it was completely me stuffing up..   

after deciding on a particular combination of settings, I then proceeded to capture with one option incorrectly set

There is something that you may be able to look at if you wish.  The Master fader doesn't have a SOLO button.  It didn't occur to me until last night that the WAI bank was 15 channels wide. Could you reduce it to 14 so that all controlled channel strips have the same capabilities and employ the master fader as Dedicated Slider For Mains..

[azslow3]

There is something that you may be able to look at if you wish.  The Master fader doesn't have a SOLO button.  It didn't occur to me until last night that the WAI bank was 15 channels wide. Could you reduce it to 14 so that all controlled channel strips have the same capabilities and employ the master fader as Dedicated Slider For Mains..

I have not started to define reasonable logic yet. I just needed some parameters to control. I now I was writing about some buttons, does not matter which.

The plan was defined "Hardware Controls" first, with proper interaction to/with device and then assign what we want them to do. That second part it not device specific and so it can be done "in one go".

But if you want I can tune a bit now the way you want. 14tracks + 1bus, 12tracks + 2buses + 1 Main, 11 tracks + 2 sends of current track + 1 named bus + 1 Main or any other combination. That will take just a minute. But I can not define mode switching since I do not have info for buttons 

[Linzmeister]

Ah,  OK. nice.
If it easily changeable at a late date, that's fine.  I thought you may have been building on a foundation, and changing the bank width would change the foundation and make the whole thing fall down, go boom.

Yes I figured you were doing hardware message first and Sonar integration second.

As it turns out there was a little bit of quiet time at work today allowing me to do some more..  I've attached a CSV file with .txt extension - it will open in Excel or any other spreadsheet software from the file menu or you can change the extension back to .csv and double click on it.

Due to multiple SysEx message transmissions per button press, I had to use MIDIOX to see the relevant messages.

This desk has 3 LCD menu buttons which control how it uses solo (page 80 of the user manual if you are interested). 

1)
Solo:         Enable     - Uses the GLOBAL Solo Status light , and each solo button flashes when active
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0E F7

Solo:           Disabled    -  doesn't use the GLOBAL Solo Status light, and each soloed channel LED turns on solid - no flashing..
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 06 F7

I would prefer to use DISABLED mode, because I want to use some solo buttons with modifiers later and it would be nice to have them turn on and stay on or turn on and send back a message to turn off, making a momentary operation out of a push on/push off button. 

Is it possible to send this message once, each time sonar/preset is loaded??
No great loss if it's not possible.  I will just have to remember to change from live PA mode to Sonar mode.. like a big boy..   This setting doesn't seem to make any difference to the MIDI messages transmitted.


2)
SOLO MODE.  Has not effect during LOCAL OFF mode (...that I can see...) and doesn't affect monitor audio passing through the desk but could really screw up a PA mix with LOCAL ON though.  If these messages are received they should be ignored like ping - trapped and thrown away - undefined action list.

Solo Mode: Recording solo
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 02 F7

Solo Mode: Mixdown SOLO               
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0A F7



3)
SEL Mode:  LAST SOLO            - sends a lot of extra SYSex messages with every solo button press - basically transmits a broadcast to turn off all solos before activating the current one...
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 09 F7
If LAST SOLO is received send the MIX SOLO message below to turn it back off immediately...  

SEL Mode:   MIX SOLO   I will use this mode. 
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 01 F7
Less data to filter through.. Sonar has a Clear SOLO and Exclusive solo commands built in. 
Can this message also be sent when loading the preset into memory?


             **********************************************************************************
So having selected DISABLED and MIX SOLO I see that the first sysex message contains the address and the switch value. The second message is common to all and could be ignored for input, but may need to be sent if we output from AZ controller the third message only occurs when soloing         or unsoloing          a different channel to the previous solo action.  My gut feeling is that they are using it as a counter to know how many solos are on at any given time so they know when to turn to GLOBAL SOLO STATUS light off


Because I am using the DISABLED mode the global solo status light is not in use anyway so I think we can ignore these 2 message types:

 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0D F7        This is the most common message I saw.  I may have changed solo mode
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 05 F7         and created this message by accident... 
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 23 01 00 10 00 F7    Sometimes a variable third message when turning on but not off.
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 23 01 01 10 00 F7    I guess the  23 01 says solo, 00,01,02 are 0 indexed channel strip numbers
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 23 01 02 10 00 F7    and 10 00 is common to all solo commands with this prefix. 
Except for the suspected solo mode change which created:
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 23 01 18 0A 04 F7    through to
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 23 01 1E 0A 04 F7

It would be interesting to see if can get away without sending either of these messages back.. probably more important in different solo modes than the ones I have chosen

the following is a recorded sequence:
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 08 F7   solo 1 on
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0D F7
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 23 01 00 10 00 F7

 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 09 F7   solo 2 on
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0D F7
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 23 01 01 10 00 F7

 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 0A F   solo 3 on
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0D F7
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 23 01 02 10 00 F7


 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 00 F7   solo 1 off
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0D F7

 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 01 F7   solo 2 off
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0D F7

 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 02 F7   solo 3 off
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 05 F7

The following sequence shows what happens when turning ch 1 solo on,off,on off  then CH 2 solo on, off, on off.

 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 08 F7   1 on
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0D F7
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 23 01 00 10 00 F7                 

 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 00 F7   1 off
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 05 F7

 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 08 F7   1 on
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0D F7

 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 00 F7   1 off
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 05 F7

 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 09 F7   2 on
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0D F7
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 23 01 01 10 00 F7                 

 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 01 F7   2 off
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 05 F7

 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 09 F7   2 on
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0D F7

 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 01 F7   2 off
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 05 F7


The CSV file contains this same information just sorted by SysEx commands to make the patterns clearer.

[azslow3]

Pleas download b336. I am using all "advanced" operations in this preset. The list of fixed bugs is growing (except one, they are all logical so far. I mean something did not work as it should under rare conditions).

Ah,  OK. nice.
If it easily changeable at a late date, that's fine.  I thought you may have been building on a foundation, and changing the bank width would change the foundation and make the whole thing fall down, go boom.

No, nothing dramatic with changing the logic later. I have now changed to 12+2+1 (Track/Bus/Main) to demonstrate that.

As it turns out there was a little bit of quiet time at work today allowing me to do some more..  I've attached a CSV file with .txt extension - it will open in Excel or any other spreadsheet software from the file menu or you can change the extension back to .csv and double click on it.

Now I understand why you had to spend so much time for that...

One general comment, so you understand the "target" of all tests and may be save a bit time on investigations of things which I hope we are not going to use. There is a difference between what Y01 tries to achieve in Local Mode and what we need out of it.

Y01 tries to control INTERNAL BANKS OF PARAMETERS on another Y01. It does not care about its physical controls (at least not directly), but it sends everything required. So it use THE SAME controls to set different parameters.

Y01 banks of parameters and Sonar parameters, while have some similarities, have not much common in practice. So I am not going to try map that internal bank to something in Sonar. We try to make Y01 physical controls operate Sonar parameters, minimizing Y01 parameters use. For that purpose, we just need information that some physical control is operated and provide reasonable feedback on it (LED or fader movement). Otherwise the logic will be too complicated without any benefits.

So we should avoid any Y01 controls which change which its hardware controls are changing/displaying internally. For example, we are not going to use strips "16-24", which use the same controls but send different messages. We will just define "WAI move" buttons for the same effect in Sonar, but with less complexity.

I understand that is not always possible. F.e. as soon as "Select" button is pressed, EQ encoders will operate with different internal parameters and so send different messages. And so, when we have no other choice, we will have to adopt. But we should really try to minimize that.

In fact for "Solo", we just need the information that the button is pressed. Either corresponding Solo was/is On/Off is not relevant. But to make LED show the situation, we are forced to use internal parameters there.

I would prefer to use DISABLED mode, because I want to use some solo buttons with modifiers later and it would be nice to have them turn on and stay on or turn on and send back a message to turn off, making a momentary operation out of a push on/push off button. 
...
Less data to filter through.. Sonar has a Clear SOLO and Exclusive solo commands built in. 
Can this message also be sent when loading the preset into memory?

I have prepared _fInitDAWMode, but I have not activated it on preset load. You can test it manually. Switch to the Logic Tab, select "_fInitDawMode" (it is the first, so most probably selected). Without selecting any particular action (you can use "Ctrl+Click" to de-select), press "Play" button. That will transmit  2 SysExes. (The last action there is what set 12+2+1 color bars in Sonar, in reality that is just visual effect, which and how strips are controlled is completely unrelated to "width" in WAI).

(guess 1) "61 00 0A XX" is Solo mode, including 0D as "at least one solo" and 05 as "no solo"
(guess 2) "23 01 XX 10 00" is to set "last used" solo, may be to know it in case Y01 is switched into "exclusive solo" mode later
(guess 3) subsequent solo status can be transfered as with faders in one SysEx.


For testing, please load a project with first 3 tracks NOT soloed. The preset works with 3 (first) Solo buttons only.

1) testing yet another guess, a consequence from (guess 1) and (guess 2) (hm... may be I am guessing too far  )
Press Solo 1.
* Check Sonar, does that really work?
* Press it again, does Sonar follow?
* was LED on the button correct so far?
* Press Solo in Sonar. Is the button indicate Solo?
* Press Solo on Y01 (so, in Sonar it should be "Off" now). Is LED indication correct?

2) even if (1) has (partially) failed, keeping track 1 without Solo, repeat the same tests with Solo 2 and Solo 3 (separately).

Background for tests (1-2): Solo 1 just receives current solo state. Solo 2 receives "Mode" in addition. Solo 3 receives "Last solo" in addition.
So, I want to check either these "extra" messages are really required.

3) switch to Logic tab and select "_Test" control. Without selecting any Action in it, press "Play" button. Do some/all Solo 4-6 buttons are changed? The first SysEx is an attempt to set "Solo" for channels 4-6 simultaneously.

One more comment: f0 43 ... f7 we will see in all messages, so we can skip that in our conversations. "10 3e 04", apart from "10", is also "constant". I hope we are going to work with "10" (Change Parameter) messages only. And so, instead of "f0 43 10 3e 4 61 0 a d f7", we can use "61 0 a d".

[Linzmeister]

hi,

Very good test results, and I am now pretty sure I am wrong about the  23 01 XX 10 00 message being a counter. 

When operating the hardware, all sonar solos work as expected.

When using sonar solos;

I can't see any difference in behavior on the 01V when turning on or off CH 1 and 2 solos.

BUT clicking SOLO 3, also selected 01V Channel 3 if a different channel was currently selected - as in the SELECT light moved to Channel 3 on the 01V when clicking Ch 3 solo in sonar, which means if I then touch the dynamics/EQ/pan/aux send on the 01V, it would be affecting channel 3 not whatever the last selected channel was.. which is brilliant.. Solo a channel on the desk or in sonar and get to work making it sound great in one step which is how the 01V works in LOCAL ON mode, instead of having to solo and then select the channel ... fewer keystrokes... quicker workflow... perfect!! 
Type 3 is the winner here.

If there is a function like Selected Channel or Set Focus in AZ controller?  When receiving the sysex message 23 01 XX 10 00  can you select Channel XX when 00 <= XX <= 0D as that now appears to be the intended 01V instruction. more about the range below..

I also changed SOLO Modes:

Changing Enabled/Disable  and Record/Mixdown makes no difference to sonar and the 01V indications are consistent with the same setting values in LOCAL ON mode.

Trying to set LAST SOLO MODE on the 01V is effectively ignored.  I can see the data coming in and going out that you are sending back the command to revert to MIX SOLO mode.. nice.  Never a chance to received the wrong message structure.  Even setting to LAST SOLO mode with LOCAL ON, is changed to MIX SOLO when switching to LOCAL OFF to connect with the AZ Controller plugin... 

Perfect!!


My reason for wanting to use channels 17-24, is because they send different MIDI messages from/to the same physical switches  as channels 1-8. I intend to map them to different sonar functions - extending the surface from 28 x 4 modifiers to 44 x 4 modifiers of buttons before looking at ACT functionality.  If parameters are changed via MIDI messages while the 01V is looking at a different screen/fader mode, when returning to the home screen/fader mode it will reflect the changes received.

I am looking at the number of physical buttons, the number of modifier buttons, and the number of functions I want access to without touching mouse and keyboard.  I am sorting through the keyboard shortcut list and optimizing a layout using EDIT, CTRL, ALT & SHIFT modifiers with the RTN 1 & 2 ON modifiers discussed previously.  I'm not getting too far ahead of myself, but I am seeing a functional workflow appearing.

When receiving the sysex message 23 01 XX 10 00 and XX > 0D  - leave as unassigned action list, because these solo commands will be editing commands and have nothing to do with selecting a channel.

Thanks again for your carefully considered support and explanations.

[azslow3]

Good! I am going to extend the preset for all solos.

But very important for design is the test (3). Can you check either it works?

Since we are on "select". Can you check what "SEL" hardware buttons are sending?

With 17-24 I see your reason. I have also understood that most other buttons in Y01 are working internally and so can not not used for our purpose.

Also have you checked InitDAWMode? 

[Linzmeister]

Yes, I did check _Test & initdawmode... 
But I did not document what changed and have forgotten. 
Will have to re-test tonight.

[Linzmeister]

I unplugged the MIDI out cable of 01V, set SEL Mode to LAST SOLO and SOLO to ENABLED.
initDAWMode successfully set SOLO to Disabled and SEL Mode to MIX SOLO.

_Test: function SELected  Channel 4 and turned on SOLO 4, 5 & 6 just like you guessed.

oh, we should have started with SEL butons... 
Sel buttons do send 23 01 XX XX  00


Select Commands

CH   SysEx out
1   23 01 00 10 00
2   23 01 01 10 00
3   23 01 02 10 00
4   23 01 03 10 00
5   23 01 04 10 00
6   23 01 05 10 00
7   23 01 06 10 00
8   23 01 07 10 00
9   23 01 08 10 00
10   23 01 09 10 00
11   23 01 0A 10 00
12   23 01 0B 10 00
13/14   23 01 0C 10 00
15/16   23 01 0D 10 00
RTN1   23 01 0E 10 00.    Undefined action list
RTN2   23 01 0F 10 00.    Undefined action list. 

I plan to use Rtn 1 &/or 2 as jog and shuttle as they are dedicated controls on the front panel.  By selecting a Rtn and putting cursor on the LCD fader, I can use the data entry wheel to edit the value with greater tactile control too 

I am not sure how or if I will use SEL 17-24 but here they are for reference anyway...
17   23 01 17 0A 02
18   23 01 18 0A 02
19   23 01 19 0A 02
20   23 01 1A 0A 02
21   23 01 1B 0A 02
22   23 01 1C 0A 02
23   23 01 1D 0A 02
24   23 01 1E 0A 02

[azslow3]

Thanks!
With "bulk transfer" of solos that is good. I worry that once we put complete configuration, Y01 can be overwhelmed with SysExes otherwise.

With that Select definition, messaged from Solo make sense. As I understand Select is "mutual exclusive", so no "unselect" required. The only question there is how to move it "out of WAI". I mean when you select let say Track 31 in Sonar, when Y01 controls Tracks 1-12. How to tell that nothing (on Y01) is selected? 

I am approaching vacation and there are quite some things to finish (at work). In addition I have got a VS-20 toy, and some related ideas (it is a king of 1-2 channels digital mixer with MIDI control, effects and control surface). I always had an idea to move AZ Controller toward some "Control Surface + StudioWare" hybrid. Make some sense for me (f.e. see the picture on http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3456209 ). But that means I had no time today, and I am not sure about tomorrow.

[Linzmeister]

As I have already said, this is progressing faster than I could have anticipated so thank you, enjoy your time off with family and friends.

I can prepare more data for later, but I won't post it so you won't be tempted to work on this while you should be relaxing..

Enjoy!!