Hi,
I found a link to the AZ controller on the cakewalk forum today. WOW!!.
I have a Yamaha 01V (first version) which used to work as a controller for Sonar up until about Version 6 or 7 when they broke something and 01V control surface plugin I was using (Yamaha 01v Control Surface Module for Sonar Copyright © 2002 Chris Boucher) stopped working. I was considering buying a controller until I saw this....
I have done some reading on the site and tried to follow the you tube video, but every fader, switch and encoder I touch is saying it is already assigned to the first thing I configured (Main Volume).
I have set the 01V up in Local Off Mode - which means it outputs only SYSEX data. The reason for running Local off is that my monitoring audio is passing through the sp/dif channels 13/14 and master output. If I was to stop routing my audio through the 01V, and Turn Local On I saw that the Fader and PAN MIDI messages output are common control change messages, but EQ, dynamics (parameter Wheel) and Aux levels are all SYSEX.
I am running Midi Ox just to see what is coming out raw - I have pruned some lines for clarity:
With Local On
TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT
Master Fader
0004F0C3 1 -- B0 1B 01 1 --- Control Change
0004F0FD 1 -- B0 1B 05 1 --- Control Change
0004F137 1 -- B0 1B 0A 1 --- Control Change
Ch15/16
0004F33A 1 -- B0 0E 03 1 --- Control Change
0004F377 1 -- B0 0E 0A 1 --- Control Change
0004F3AF 1 -- B0 0E 0D 1 --- Control Change
ch 13/14
0004F508 1 -- B0 0D 04 1 --- Control Change
0004F542 1 -- B0 0D 09 1 --- Control Change
0004F57D 1 -- B0 0D 0E 1 --- Control Change
Ch12
0004F6D3 1 -- B0 0C 06 1 --- Control Change
0004F711 1 -- B0 0C 0E 1 --- Control Change
0004F74B 1 -- B0 0C 0F 1 --- Control Change
ch 11
0004F8A1 1 -- B0 0B 07 1 --- CC: Expression
0004F8DE 1 -- B0 0B 0B 1 --- CC: Expression
0004F916 1 -- B0 0B 0C 1 --- CC: Expression
Ch10
0004FA6C 1 -- B0 0A 01 1 --- CC: PAN
0004FAA8 1 -- B0 0A 02 1 --- CC: PAN
0004FB8E 1 -- B0 0A 09 1 --- CC: PAN
with LOCAL OFF
TIMESTAMP IN PORT STATUS DATA1 DATA2 CHAN NOTE EVENT
The following line seems to be on a timer of some sort.. keeps appearing when nothing is being touched
006B992F 1 -- F0 Buffer: 8 Bytes System Exclusive
SYSX: F0 43 30 3E 04 25 02 F7
Master Fader
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 24 02 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 24 0D F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 24 0E F7
Ch 15/16 fader
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 19 03 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 19 0A F7
CH 13/14 fader
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 18 03 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 18 08 F7
SYSX: F0 43 30 3E 04 25 02 F7 Again ??
Ch12 fader
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 17 05 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 17 0A F7
Ch11 fader
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 16 0A F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 16 0C F7
Ch10 fader
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 15 0D F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 15 12 F7
SYSX: F0 43 30 3E 04 25 02 F7 Again ??
All of the faders show up on the AZ Last Midi Event as
<43> 10 3e 4 61 0 10 2
I did read where this part was explained indicating already assigned...
| Ctrl 85
I can follow that as far as
<43> 10 3e 4
but the last part doesn't seem to match up right.
61 0 10 2 | Ctrl 85
Attached is the Startup preset with the my master fader assigned.. I can't assign anything else, because when I select S1 Fader for example, and move fader 1 on the 01V the Assign MIDI button is greyed out because that SYSEX message it is already assigned fro CTRL 85.
It certainly doesn't flow as quickly as the MPK mini example in the youtube video... which I did notice is using control Changes :(
I am comfortable with programming and very technical details usually... Have I missed some crucial piece of information?
Regards,
Linz.
Hi and welcome,
Up to now there was no requests to support parametric SysEx messages. And so they are not supported... yet.
I think "<43> 10 3e 4 61 0 10 2" in fact was sent by Yamaha at some point, it is just not updated then (which is a bug I have to fix). Till now I was using SysEx primary for output, so that functionality was not tested intensively (it looks like I update Last MIDI Event only in case SysEx is different in first 4 bytes).
If you can find any documentation for these SysExes, that can help. Repeatable "F0 43 30 3E 04 25 02 F7" can be "ping" on which some reply is expected. I see there are complicated rules exists (https://www.bome.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3734) , so I will probably have to implement Yamaha specific MIDI interpreter. And that can be challenging without known all rules.
In any case, I will fix Last MIDI event bug and I will think about SysEx processing possibilities. Please be patient.
g'day,
Yeah, the last 4 bytes contain the desired (variable) information..
The various different ways I tried to attach pages of the user manual that talk about the MIDI implementation seem to violate your posting rules.. primarily file size. so a link will have to do. See Pages 274-289
http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file?language=en&site=countrysite-master.prod.wsys.yamaha.com&asset_id=4146 (http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file?language=en&site=countrysite-master.prod.wsys.yamaha.com&asset_id=4146) If this is insufficient, I can try and capture the data required off the cable.
I have done a little work with Bome MIDI translator and MIDI OX/MIDI Yoke in the past. I will try to translate the messages like mentioned on the Bome website and pass the edited messages onto AZ Control Surface. I have asked @artsrecording if he got it working. I have known him for 10 years..
After doing some more reading on this forum today and based on symptoms I have I suspect my ACT/XML files are at least partially corrupted or worse. I will try the ActFix tonight.
So much really useful information here - Thank you.
Regards,
Lindsay.
Hi,
Thank you for the link. I probably have to dig it deeper. I have already understood that "Local off" mode is for remote controlling another 01V. I still have not understood either the communication is described in this manual. On page 281 there is "4. PARAMETER CHANGE" format. Your observation for Master fader is "F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 24 02 F7". But in the documentation there is no "type 30". And so I am a bit confused.
I have fixed/extended AZ Controller to make required communication possible. Please download the latest TEST version from Downloads menu, so you need 0.5r1b325 (or later if I find some bug before you download it...).
I attach simple preset which (with some luck) should control current track Volume by Master fader. Can you check that is really the case?
I will extent the preset then to test other features. I think most important are simultaneous moving of several faders and moving faders (I mean feedback). If we can make that work, the rest is much simpler (since not hardware dependent).
Thank you!!
Yup, that works a treat.
Click on any channel in Sonar with the mouse and move master fader on 01V and Sonar's selected fader responds as anticipated.
I have captured a lot of MIDI data... Still making it presentable. But a little now to show this pattern:
Channel 1
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 0C 01 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 0C 04 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 0C 07 F7
Channel 2
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 0D 02 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 0D 03 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 0D 06 F7
Channel 3
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 0E 01 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 0E 03 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 0E 04 F7
Master Fader
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 24 2B F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 24 2C F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 24 2D F7
It appears that the third last byte (counting the EOX) is the fader address and the second last byte is the current position value.
From the data I've captured the position filled by the 30 00 does change, but I haven't seen the systematic pattern behind it yet. More capturing required to see why.
ArtsRecording was absolutely correct about the adjacent faders on the BOME forum:... I move a single fader and get a 10 byte message, I moved a bunch all at once (with a ruler - which is never going to happen while mixing) and I got an 18 byte message
27 is ch 1 Aux send 1
28 is Ch 2 Aux send 1
....
2F
30 is Ch10 Aux 1...
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 30 02 F7
SYSX: F0 43 30 3E 04 25 02 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 28 09 09 08 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 2C 06 06 06 05 03 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 2B 09 07 07 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 2F 06 05 01 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 2A 09 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 2C 08 08 07 07 06 02 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 27 05 0A 0A 0A 0A 09 09 09 09 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 30 07 03 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 27 06 0B 0B 0B 0B 0A 0A 0A 0A F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 30 09 05 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 00 27 07 0C 0D 0D 0D 0B 0B 0B 0B F7
As it is 2 AM here, I'd better call it a night.
Thank you once again.
I'm Really excited to see how far this can go.
Please slow down a bit with different controls, otherwise I can mix some numbers... Lets agree that you are NOT switching default layout mode, I mean let keep faders controlling channels. We are not done with that yet...
I attach next test preset. This time 15 faders (inclusive master) should control 15 tracks volumes in WAI (WAI are indicated, we have not defined buttes yet on Yama, but you can move WAI with mouse for tests). That should work by one or many (also with a ruler), also test not adjusted faders simultaneously.
If that works, the next topic will be feedback (move faders from movements in Sonar). We will have to find correct messages for that (with some luck the same message sent back, but can be not so simple). Also Yama faders are not touch sensitive and that is going to be tricky. We do not want faders are fighting with your fingers, but we also do not want they stay unsynced. How to achieve that is device specific, we will have to test several approaches.
But first things first, please test attached preset.
Very Nice.
All 15 track faders respond to the 01V fader movements. I used the spine of a large book to move all 15 01V faders at once and they all moved together.
I made 46 audio tracks in a CWP. Moving WAI around with the mouse.. 01V fader 1 moved WAI first track fader and sequentially up to the master. After setting some random fader levels, changing WAI region and moving 01V faders a very little, the newly controlled WAI fader jumps to 01V fader level. That looks perfect!!
The way the old CS plugin I had solved the non-touch sensitive issue was with a Button on the Transport bank that switched MIDI transmission of Automation data on/off. From memory the Sonar faders still moved on screen, but the 01V was not being sent the automation commands..
Snippet from the old help file:
ON Buttons
The input channels ON buttons control different things, depending on the state of the Return 1 and Return 2 ON buttons:
Return 1 Return 2 ON Button Functions
OFF OFF Mute input or enable aux send, depending on the Fader Mode
ON OFF Arm Tracks
OFF ON Transport Controls
Transport control list
Channel Function
1 Return To Zero
2 Go to End
3 Stop
4 Play
5 Record
6 Record Automation
7 Previous Measure
8 Next Measure
9 Previous Marker
10 Next Marker
11 - 13/14 Unused
15/16 On: faders move in response to Sonar
Off: ignore fader movements sent by Sonar
The 01V Yahoo Group files area, mentioned in the CW thread, has much more detail about the MIDI implementation than the user manual. I have only skimmed it so far, but the 30 00 xx may be a 3 byte address or a function call with a parameter followed by an address. Surprisingly this beasty will also transmit and receive meter levels.
So far so good...
I have tried to dig "community" documentation, unfortunately it looks like messages we observe are from "proprietary" part (the chapter exists in the documentation, but it is deleted). So, lets continue with what we have and look how far we can get with that.
General Motor Off is not a problem, we will implement it later (as in the old plug-in or some other way).
Next test is to find good way to send values from Sonar to fader while not fighting with finger when you move it manually. Sound like a no problem, but you will see it practice soon ;)
For attached preset please downloaded new test version, b329. I have fixed some bugs which by luck I hit when preparing that preset, it took a while to understand from where they come, so it is probably late now for you again...
You will need a project with at least 3 tracks. The test is for the first 3 faders only.
* After loading the preset, switch to the "Overview" tab. In the "Current Software State" you should see "Moved(_Ch) (No)". Select "Motor (Off)" there. Then change "Off" to "On" in the right box (so you see "Motor (On)").
* 3 faders should move to current position in Sonar. If that does not happened, the message is incorrect (not the same as from Yama). Let me know that is the case, ignore other questions in this post then since they make no sense
* if you observe something strange from Yama, for example some fader is "busy moving", switch "Motor" to "Off". Do not let it "vibrate" for too long, that can damage the device! Let me know which fader it was (all 3 or just one of them) and do not follow future questions.
* if faders was moved correctly, try to change volume of first WAI track in Sonar. Does Yama fader moves as expected? Some strange movements/sounds? "Busy" movement started?
* thy move second and then third volumes in Sonar, the same questions as for the first
* try change volume with these 3 faders separately (I mean moving hardware faders). Does at least one of them react correctly? Are they fighting with fingers? Are they "jumping" (even a bit) after you stop moving them?
Some explanation. Each of these 3 faders is configured with different logic when should Sonar send current value back. It can happened that yet another method is required. But it can happened that some (or even all) work correctly.
Hi,
All faders move to WAI fader values when I turned Motors on in the plug in.
There was no motor noise by simply enabling motor data transmission after initial re-positioning to current WAI value.
Moving first 3 faders in WAI region moves first 3 faders on 01V.
Move 01V fader 1: The motor was fighting me for control.
Move 01V Faders 2 and 3: Both moved as expected and both felt natural and the motors were not fighting me for control.
I then Record Armed tracks 2 and 3 and enabled write automation on 2&3. recorded a bunch of moves and it played back as expected.
It has been a long time since I have seen it do that. Very satisfying to watch..
Thank you.
That is better then I have thought ;)
But we should decide which method to use, 2 or 3. I attach test 4 preset.
First 7 faders there are (should be) of type "2" and next 7 faders are of type "3".
How feedback cycle is working, when you move hardware fader:
* AZC ask Sonar to change strip volume. Sonar changes the volume (if that is possible)
* Next time (~75 ms) AZC "notice" the change in volume and then...
The difference:
* type 2 (1-7) "skip" one (and only one) feedback from Sonar. With the idea that since the change was triggered by hardware fader, we do not have to send it back. But all other changes will be transmitted to Y then.
* type 3 (8-14) stop transmitting updates to Y for ~5 seconds (that we can change to 1-2 sec, I have specially made that time big for testing). But then it ALWAYS transmit actual position, either it was the result of original movement or from other operations Sonar.
Both methods have advantages and potential disadvantages.
Possible deal breaker is a disadvantage for type 3 (8-14), so please check either that is the case: since type 3 ALWAYS send actual position after 5 seconds without operation, if Y is not "smart", it will activate motor even if fader position is ok, so it will "tick moved".
How to test: move some fader of type 3 (8-14), then stop moving but keep your finger on it. Do you feel something after ~5 seconds? It can be also tested visually, but the effect can be really subtle.
You can ask why I would prefer (3) over (2), in case Y is sufficiently smart to NOT move faders when not required. Disadvantage of (2) is that in case you have already recorded automation and try to move the fader, Y will fight with you all the time. (3) will stop updating for a while.
We can try some "hybrid" solution if we find that (3) is better but mentioned disadvantage exists. But at the end that is you who can decide what you prefer, so please test and let me know what you think.
Note. It can happened that some faders are not moved to right position initially. SysExs are slow in transmission, so when 14 of them are sent simultaneously, some can be "skipped" on Y side. That is why Y use "cumulative" messages when you adjust several faders. I will adopt that approach once we decide about feedback type, so I will send only 2 SysEx to update 14 faders.
Quote
I could not hear, feel or see any motor ticks on either bank of type 2 or 3 after being moved.
That is good.
Quote
So I recorded automation on all 14 tracks.
I moved NOW time to the middle of the automation sequence. Within each bank of 7 tracks, some had solid envelope trace between 2 nodes(currently changing value), some had dotted line envelopes between 2 nodes (static resting automation).
Sonar has different behavior with automations, which is a combination of parameter change mode used in the Control Surface (so set in my Preset) and Track Automation mode (set in the Track Inspector, Track tab, Automation section).
Parameter change modes are:
* Timeout (I use it now). When you change parameter, the Automation is written during the time you change parameter and some time after. Once that "timeout" (Sonar internal, I do not know how to change it) is over, the automation is no longer indicated as active. The result depends from Track Automation mode
* Automatic. Like Timeout, but was thought to be "smart". So Sonar tries to deduct either you really still want write automation or not. It normally fails in that, producing rather strange effects. For example you have moved fader to -6dB and kept it here for a while, than moved to -3dB. If you do thick "quick", so the values transmitted during -6...-3 movement are not -6,-5,-4,-3 but simply new change, f.e. -4,-3, the line is drawn from -6 to -4. So, during the time when your fader was not moved on -6, the automation is written as slowly moving from -6 to -4. So I prefer not use this mode (but is is supported in plug-in).
* Manual. When explicit signal is sent from Surface when to start and when end automation writing. That is obviously the best for overwriting automations, since no guesses should be made either you want the value stay as you want or you expect it is reverted to existing automation. You kind of "punch in" manually specifying the region. Naturally that works with touch sensitive controls, so you overwrite as long as you touch it. Yama has no touch sensitive faders... but we can try to use it later, using some button as a "touch sensor". This mode is used with mouse, since mouse press/release can be used as "touch".
Track automation modes are:
* Touch (default). Obviously works best with Manual Parameter Set mode. The automation is (over)written only as long and Set mode say it should be
* Overwrite. The automation is overwritten to current value. So, "no longer write" signal is irrelevant.
* Latch. The same as Overwrite, but it start (over)writing not from the beginning, but from the first time you change it.
For not touch sensitive faders, Latch/Overwrite are more natural then Touch.
"Doted" parts is when the Timeout was over. And since you was in default "Touch" mode, no automation is written there.
Quote
With the transport stopped, the tracks with solid automation envelope lines behaved weird..
...
Is this a normal sonar/recorded automation symptom?
Yes. In fact when Automation reading is enabled, your real level is the automation. As soon as you release fader, the value is reverted to automated.
So, Sonar Fader is not in sync with real volume! And mode (3) fader in that particular case also (which is not good and I have to fix it).
Quote
Thank you. This is progressing so much faster than I thought possible.
Not today... quite some activity there. Not sure I can prepare next next till tomorrow.
Excellent explanation.
I had to read it twice to fully understand the finer implications of the various modes and how they impact the operation and workflow.
You're right, I had not deliberately chosen any particular automation mode so, yes it was set to Touch.
Next Test ;) You need b330 test version (or later) for it.
Faders 1-15 should control 15 WAI Tracks volumes.
Programmed method 3 (from previous discussion) for all faders.
Feedback time (delay till faders start follow Sonar position after you have used it) is set to 2 Seconds.
One note about that which I have not mentioned before: if you move several faders, simultaneously or sequestial within 2 sec, feedback for all of them is restored 2 sec after you no longer operate ANY fader (that, as well as everything else can be changed. But that is how it is configured now).
Faders should "jump back" after moving fader in Sonar, there is an automation for it and it is enabled (R button). So that will put hardware fader out of sync with Sonar faders, but keep them in sync with real volume value.
Data are transmitted back "compressed" way, up to 7 channels in one SysEx. With the same logic as Yama send changes.
The whole preset was reworked to implement that logic, so there can be some general glitches (as you understand, I have hard time testing it, I always have to change SysEx sends and loop them back, so I can easily forget to revert the changes before publishing the preset) . Do not worry, just report what I have managed to break.
Otherwise check all possible operations with faders, this preset supposed to be "final" for fader communication logic. I hope we can move to buttons and encoders soon.
G'day Alexey,
Is there any particular Automation mode you want me testing in or do you want me to test all 3 modes? Touch, Overwrite, Latch?
I want to check that faders are working correctly in all situations. Better with just uploaded b332 (there is some tiny modification which affect mapping from faders).
In other words we should check that I have not overseen something in configuration, so faders are moved when required and as expected (also all of them, initially and in case of WAI changes). If you look inside the preset, there is quite some "programming", and as with every program, bugs are easer to fix during the development and not months later when the program looks like was written by aliens 8)
I quit Sonar
Installed b332.
Started Sonar and loaded test project Sonar crashed.
Uninstalled AZ controller through windows control panel and started sonar. It complained about the missing CS.DLL but opened the test project. I deleted or checked that no control surface was in prefs and closed Sonar.
Re-install b332 and restarted Sonar. Added AZ Plugin to prefs. loaded test preset and got an exception error and captured a dump file. Do you want the dump file?? 3,198KB
b330 observations..
I can only start recording automation on a fresh track in overwrite mode if I go into the automation lanes and hit the write enable in there. I am sure that is a CW thing
After some time , I accidentally made the scenario you mentioned where the Automation envelope was rising very slowly over several seconds.
Edit
The faders on these tracks couldn't be adjusted as the motors were engaged.
/edit
So I recorded 1 minute silence on 3 tracks and manual wrote a volume envelop to decrease 0.2db on each track over the duration of the minute.
I set track 1 to Touch Mode, 2 to Overwrite, 3 to Latch.
Touch and Latch modes couldn't overwrite this section, but overwrite mode could. I found that by turning off READ Automation all 3 modes could overwrite the existing automation.
If the written automation line between 2 nodes is completely flat ie, both nodes are at the same value, any automation mode could overwrite successfully.
At one point I deleted all the tracks and inserted new ones to completely remove all automation data.. the WAI disappeared. I deleted control surface plugin from prefs and added it back in, selected the preset and WAI came back.
With the operational discoveries I can see this preset working quite well.
Quote from: Linzmeister on July 27, 2016, 02:56:30 PM
I quit Sonar
Installed b332.
Started Sonar and loaded test project Sonar crashed.
Agrr... I am really sorry. My last "subtle change" had a bug and was crashing sonar. Please download
b333.
I normally test in my FakeSonar first (I have my own "Control Surfaces Host" application, it startup way faster then real Sonar), then with Sonar X2 (32bit) and then Sonar Platinum (64bit). But not always, especially during "rapid development".
You can install any version of AZ Controller over any other version, I mean you do not have to reinstall or remove it from Sonar preferences. Setup is prepared for that, it will not pollute your system nor leave old files. Uninstaller is also true "restless". I like such programs, so I prefer my programs also behave good.
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I can only start recording automation on a fresh track in overwrite mode if I go into the automation lanes and hit the write enable in there. I am sure that is a CW thing
Yes, CW way. Without real touch and when you have continuously changing parameter, only "overwrite" and "disable read automation" will allow you to overwrite now. We will add "global motor off" later (in fact it is already in the preset, you was using it during the first test, but we do not have a button yet to change it from Yama).
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At one point I deleted all the tracks and inserted new ones to completely remove all automation data.. the WAI disappeared. I deleted control surface plugin from prefs and added it back in, selected the preset and WAI came back.
WAI can disappear... Sonar bug. Usually reloading the project and sometimes closing/opening the view or Reloading Surface preset return it. At most Sonar restart. No reason to delete surface.
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With the operational discoveries I can see this preset working quite well.
Fine. We can move to buttons. Let start with strip "Solo" buttons. From pictures I guess they have LED.
You can use AZ Controller "Last MIDI Event" instead of MIDIOx to see what is going on. But it shows only the "last" event, so if several events are triggered by one operation, that is not visible.
For Solo button on Channel 1:
Which message is sent when you press it?
Is additional message is sent when you release it?
Is the message is still the same when you press it the second time?
Is LED is automatically switched On when you press it?
Then I will also need the message for Channel 2 and Master channel (I guess Channels 3 ... 15/16 follow the same rules as 1,2)
I have updated the plug-in to b335 and attach yet another test preset. It does things differently, I had some thoughts how to organize things better for the future. But the result should be the same as in preset 5. And so no intensive testing required.
thank you..
I won't try to do anything with it tonight. I have just spent several hours tonight capturing the wrong data - the 01V has 3 LCD menu options that control soloing, and after deciding on a particular combination of settings, I then proceeded to capture with one option incorrectly set giving me different midi data output... :'( :-X :-[ :o
I have got to call it quits for the night now.
I have a couple of things happening this weekend (yes midnight has just rolled over into Friday morning here). I don't know how much time I will get in the studio to test or collate data. I will do what I can, but it may be Monday night my time before you hear from me again...
Sorry that I a kind of forced you to waste your time...
We can continue when you are ready, Monday next week or Monday a month later. There is obviously no deadline. If someone else want it faster, he/she can join the development ;)
oh no, it was completely me stuffing up.. :-[ :'(
Quote from: Linzmeister on July 28, 2016, 04:23:59 PM
after deciding on a particular combination of settings, I then proceeded to capture with one option incorrectly set
There is something that you may be able to look at if you wish. The Master fader doesn't have a SOLO button. It didn't occur to me until last night that the WAI bank was 15 channels wide. Could you reduce it to 14 so that all controlled channel strips have the same capabilities and employ the master fader as Dedicated Slider For Mains..
Quote from: Linzmeister on July 29, 2016, 05:20:23 AM
There is something that you may be able to look at if you wish. The Master fader doesn't have a SOLO button. It didn't occur to me until last night that the WAI bank was 15 channels wide. Could you reduce it to 14 so that all controlled channel strips have the same capabilities and employ the master fader as Dedicated Slider For Mains..
I have not started to define reasonable logic yet. I just needed some parameters to control. I now I was writing about some buttons, does not matter which.
The plan was defined "Hardware Controls" first, with proper interaction to/with device and then assign what we want them to do. That second part it not device specific and so it can be done "in one go".
But if you want I can tune a bit now the way you want. 14tracks + 1bus, 12tracks + 2buses + 1 Main, 11 tracks + 2 sends of current track + 1 named bus + 1 Main or any other combination. That will take just a minute. But I can not define mode switching since I do not have info for buttons ;)
Ah, OK. nice.
If it easily changeable at a late date, that's fine. I thought you may have been building on a foundation, and changing the bank width would change the foundation and make the whole thing fall down, go boom.
Yes I figured you were doing hardware message first and Sonar integration second.
As it turns out there was a little bit of quiet time at work today allowing me to do some more.. I've attached a CSV file with .txt extension - it will open in Excel or any other spreadsheet software from the file menu or you can change the extension back to .csv and double click on it.
Due to multiple SysEx message transmissions per button press, I had to use MIDIOX to see the relevant messages.
This desk has 3 LCD menu buttons which control how it uses solo (page 80 of the user manual if you are interested).
1)
Solo: Enable - Uses the GLOBAL Solo Status light , and each solo button flashes when active
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0E F7
Solo: Disabled - doesn't use the GLOBAL Solo Status light, and each soloed channel LED turns on solid - no flashing..
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 06 F7
I would prefer to use DISABLED mode, because I want to use some solo buttons with modifiers later and it would be nice to have them turn on and stay on or turn on and send back a message to turn off, making a momentary operation out of a push on/push off button.
Is it possible to send this message once, each time sonar/preset is loaded??
No great loss if it's not possible. I will just have to remember to change from live PA mode to Sonar mode.. like a big boy.. ;) This setting doesn't seem to make any difference to the MIDI messages transmitted.
2)
SOLO MODE. Has not effect during LOCAL OFF mode (...that I can see...) and doesn't affect monitor audio passing through the desk but could really screw up a PA mix with LOCAL ON though. If these messages are received they should be ignored like ping - trapped and thrown away - undefined action list.
Solo Mode: Recording solo
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 02 F7
Solo Mode: Mixdown SOLO
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0A F7
3)
SEL Mode: LAST SOLO - sends a lot of extra SYSex messages with every solo button press - basically transmits a broadcast to turn off all solos before activating the current one...
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 09 F7
If LAST SOLO is received send the MIX SOLO message below to turn it back off immediately... ??? :)
SEL Mode: MIX SOLO I will use this mode.
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 01 F7
Less data to filter through.. Sonar has a Clear SOLO and Exclusive solo commands built in.
Can this message also be sent when loading the preset into memory?
**********************************************************************************
So having selected DISABLED and MIX SOLO I see that the first sysex message contains the address and the switch value. The second message is common to all and could be ignored for input, but may need to be sent if we output from AZ controller the third message only occurs when soloing or unsoloing a different channel to the previous solo action. My gut feeling is that they are using it as a counter to know how many solos are on at any given time so they know when to turn to GLOBAL SOLO STATUS light off
Because I am using the DISABLED mode the global solo status light is not in use anyway so I think we can ignore these 2 message types:
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0D F7 This is the most common message I saw. I may have changed solo mode
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 05 F7 and created this message by accident... :-\
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 23 01 00 10 00 F7 Sometimes a variable third message when turning on but not off.
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 23 01 01 10 00 F7 I guess the 23 01 says solo, 00,01,02 are 0 indexed channel strip numbers
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 23 01 02 10 00 F7 and 10 00 is common to all solo commands with this prefix.
Except for the suspected solo mode change which created:
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 23 01 18 0A 04 F7 through to
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 23 01 1E 0A 04 F7
It would be interesting to see if can get away without sending either of these messages back.. probably more important in different solo modes than the ones I have chosen
the following is a recorded sequence:
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 08 F7 solo 1 on
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0D F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 23 01 00 10 00 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 09 F7 solo 2 on
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0D F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 23 01 01 10 00 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 0A F solo 3 on
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0D F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 23 01 02 10 00 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 00 F7 solo 1 off
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0D F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 01 F7 solo 2 off
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0D F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 02 F7 solo 3 off
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 05 F7
The following sequence shows what happens when turning ch 1 solo on,off,on off then CH 2 solo on, off, on off.
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 08 F7 1 on
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0D F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 23 01 00 10 00 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 00 F7 1 off
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 05 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 08 F7 1 on
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0D F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 00 F7 1 off
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 05 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 09 F7 2 on
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0D F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 23 01 01 10 00 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 01 F7 2 off
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 05 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 09 F7 2 on
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 0D F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0F 01 F7 2 off
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 05 F7
The CSV file contains this same information just sorted by SysEx commands to make the patterns clearer.
Pleas download
b336. I am using all "advanced" operations in this preset. The list of fixed bugs is growing (except one, they are all logical so far. I mean something did not work as it should under rare conditions).
Quote from: Linzmeister on July 29, 2016, 08:46:34 AM
Ah, OK. nice.
If it easily changeable at a late date, that's fine. I thought you may have been building on a foundation, and changing the bank width would change the foundation and make the whole thing fall down, go boom.
No, nothing dramatic with changing the logic later. I have now changed to 12+2+1 (Track/Bus/Main) to demonstrate that.
Quote
As it turns out there was a little bit of quiet time at work today allowing me to do some more.. I've attached a CSV file with .txt extension - it will open in Excel or any other spreadsheet software from the file menu or you can change the extension back to .csv and double click on it.
Now I understand why you had to spend so much time for that...
One general comment, so you understand the "target" of all tests and may be save a bit time on investigations of things which I hope we are not going to use. There is a difference between what Y01 tries to achieve in Local Mode and what we need out of it.
Y01 tries to control INTERNAL BANKS OF PARAMETERS on another Y01. It does not care about its physical controls (at least not directly), but it sends everything required. So it use THE SAME controls to set different parameters.
Y01 banks of parameters and Sonar parameters, while have some similarities, have not much common in practice. So I am not going to try map that internal bank to something in Sonar. We try to make Y01 physical controls operate Sonar parameters, minimizing Y01 parameters use. For that purpose, we just need information that some physical control is operated and provide reasonable feedback on it (LED or fader movement). Otherwise the logic will be too complicated without any benefits.
So we should avoid any Y01 controls which change which its hardware controls are changing/displaying internally. For example, we are not going to use strips "16-24", which use the same controls but send different messages. We will just define "WAI move" buttons for the same effect in Sonar, but with less complexity.
I understand that is not always possible. F.e. as soon as "Select" button is pressed, EQ encoders will operate with different internal parameters and so send different messages. And so, when we have no other choice, we will have to adopt. But we should really try to minimize that.
In fact for "Solo", we just need the information that the button is pressed. Either corresponding Solo was/is On/Off is not relevant. But to make LED show the situation, we are forced to use internal parameters there.
Quote
I would prefer to use DISABLED mode, because I want to use some solo buttons with modifiers later and it would be nice to have them turn on and stay on or turn on and send back a message to turn off, making a momentary operation out of a push on/push off button.
...
Less data to filter through.. Sonar has a Clear SOLO and Exclusive solo commands built in.
Can this message also be sent when loading the preset into memory?
I have prepared _fInitDAWMode, but I have not activated it on preset load. You can test it manually. Switch to the Logic Tab, select "_fInitDawMode" (it is the first, so most probably selected). Without selecting any particular action (you can use "Ctrl+Click" to de-select), press "Play" button. That will transmit 2 SysExes. (The last action there is what set 12+2+1 color bars in Sonar, in reality that is just visual effect, which and how strips are controlled is completely unrelated to "width" in WAI).
(guess 1) "61 00 0A XX" is Solo mode, including 0D as "at least one solo" and 05 as "no solo"
(guess 2) "23 01 XX 10 00" is to set "last used" solo, may be to know it in case Y01 is switched into "exclusive solo" mode later
(guess 3) subsequent solo status can be transfered as with faders in one SysEx.
For testing, please load a project with first 3 tracks NOT soloed. The preset works with 3 (first) Solo buttons only.
1) testing yet another guess, a consequence from (guess 1) and (guess 2) (hm... may be I am guessing too far ;) )
Press Solo 1.
* Check Sonar, does that really work?
* Press it again, does Sonar follow?
* was LED on the button correct so far?
* Press Solo in Sonar. Is the button indicate Solo?
* Press Solo on Y01 (so, in Sonar it should be "Off" now). Is LED indication correct?
2) even if (1) has (partially) failed, keeping track 1 without Solo, repeat the same tests with Solo 2 and Solo 3 (separately).
Background for tests (1-2): Solo 1 just receives current solo state. Solo 2 receives "Mode" in addition. Solo 3 receives "Last solo" in addition.
So, I want to check either these "extra" messages are really required.
3) switch to Logic tab and select "_Test" control. Without selecting any Action in it, press "Play" button. Do some/all Solo 4-6 buttons are changed? The first SysEx is an attempt to set "Solo" for channels 4-6 simultaneously.
One more comment: f0 43 ... f7 we will see in all messages, so we can skip that in our conversations. "10 3e 04", apart from "10", is also "constant". I hope we are going to work with "10" (Change Parameter) messages only. And so, instead of "f0 43 10 3e 4 61 0 a d f7", we can use "61 0 a d".
hi,
Very good test results, and I am now pretty sure I am wrong about the 23 01 XX 10 00 message being a counter.
When operating the hardware, all sonar solos work as expected.
When using sonar solos;
I can't see any difference in behavior on the 01V when turning on or off CH 1 and 2 solos.
BUT clicking SOLO 3, also selected 01V Channel 3 if a different channel was currently selected - as in the SELECT light moved to Channel 3 on the 01V when clicking Ch 3 solo in sonar, which means if I then touch the dynamics/EQ/pan/aux send on the 01V, it would be affecting channel 3 not whatever the last selected channel was.. which is brilliant.. Solo a channel on the desk or in sonar and get to work making it sound great in one step which is how the 01V works in LOCAL ON mode, instead of having to solo and then select the channel ... fewer keystrokes... quicker workflow... perfect!!
Type 3 is the winner here.
If there is a function like Selected Channel or Set Focus in AZ controller? When receiving the sysex message 23 01 XX 10 00 can you select Channel XX when 00 <= XX <= 0D as that now appears to be the intended 01V instruction. more about the range below..
I also changed SOLO Modes:
Changing Enabled/Disable and Record/Mixdown makes no difference to sonar and the 01V indications are consistent with the same setting values in LOCAL ON mode.
Trying to set LAST SOLO MODE on the 01V is effectively ignored. I can see the data coming in and going out that you are sending back the command to revert to MIX SOLO mode.. nice. Never a chance to received the wrong message structure. Even setting to LAST SOLO mode with LOCAL ON, is changed to MIX SOLO when switching to LOCAL OFF to connect with the AZ Controller plugin...
Perfect!!
My reason for wanting to use channels 17-24, is because they send different MIDI messages from/to the same physical switches as channels 1-8. I intend to map them to different sonar functions - extending the surface from 28 x 4 modifiers to 44 x 4 modifiers of buttons before looking at ACT functionality. If parameters are changed via MIDI messages while the 01V is looking at a different screen/fader mode, when returning to the home screen/fader mode it will reflect the changes received.
I am looking at the number of physical buttons, the number of modifier buttons, and the number of functions I want access to without touching mouse and keyboard. I am sorting through the keyboard shortcut list and optimizing a layout using EDIT, CTRL, ALT & SHIFT modifiers with the RTN 1 & 2 ON modifiers discussed previously. I'm not getting too far ahead of myself, but I am seeing a functional workflow appearing.
When receiving the sysex message 23 01 XX 10 00 and XX > 0D - leave as unassigned action list, because these solo commands will be editing commands and have nothing to do with selecting a channel.
Thanks again for your carefully considered support and explanations.
Good! I am going to extend the preset for all solos.
But very important for design is the test (3). Can you check either it works?
Since we are on "select". Can you check what "SEL" hardware buttons are sending?
With 17-24 I see your reason. I have also understood that most other buttons in Y01 are working internally and so can not not used for our purpose.
Also have you checked InitDAWMode?
Yes, I did check _Test & initdawmode...
But I did not document what changed and have forgotten.
Will have to re-test tonight.
I unplugged the MIDI out cable of 01V, set SEL Mode to LAST SOLO and SOLO to ENABLED.
initDAWMode successfully set SOLO to Disabled and SEL Mode to MIX SOLO.
_Test: function SELected Channel 4 and turned on SOLO 4, 5 & 6 just like you guessed.
oh, we should have started with SEL butons... :D 8)
Sel buttons do send 23 01 XX XX 00
Select Commands
CH SysEx out
1 23 01 00 10 00
2 23 01 01 10 00
3 23 01 02 10 00
4 23 01 03 10 00
5 23 01 04 10 00
6 23 01 05 10 00
7 23 01 06 10 00
8 23 01 07 10 00
9 23 01 08 10 00
10 23 01 09 10 00
11 23 01 0A 10 00
12 23 01 0B 10 00
13/14 23 01 0C 10 00
15/16 23 01 0D 10 00
RTN1 23 01 0E 10 00. Undefined action list
RTN2 23 01 0F 10 00. Undefined action list.
I plan to use Rtn 1 &/or 2 as jog and shuttle as they are dedicated controls on the front panel. By selecting a Rtn and putting cursor on the LCD fader, I can use the data entry wheel to edit the value with greater tactile control too 8)
I am not sure how or if I will use SEL 17-24 but here they are for reference anyway...
17 23 01 17 0A 02
18 23 01 18 0A 02
19 23 01 19 0A 02
20 23 01 1A 0A 02
21 23 01 1B 0A 02
22 23 01 1C 0A 02
23 23 01 1D 0A 02
24 23 01 1E 0A 02
Thanks!
With "bulk transfer" of solos that is good. I worry that once we put complete configuration, Y01 can be overwhelmed with SysExes otherwise.
With that Select definition, messaged from Solo make sense. As I understand Select is "mutual exclusive", so no "unselect" required. The only question there is how to move it "out of WAI". I mean when you select let say Track 31 in Sonar, when Y01 controls Tracks 1-12. How to tell that nothing (on Y01) is selected? ???
I am approaching vacation and there are quite some things to finish (at work). In addition I have got a VS-20 toy, and some related ideas (it is a king of 1-2 channels digital mixer with MIDI control, effects and control surface). I always had an idea to move AZ Controller toward some "Control Surface + StudioWare" hybrid. Make some sense for me (f.e. see the picture on http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3456209 ). But that means I had no time today, and I am not sure about tomorrow.
As I have already said, this is progressing faster than I could have anticipated so thank you, enjoy your time off with family and friends.
I can prepare more data for later, but I won't post it so you won't be tempted to work on this while you should be relaxing.. :D 8)
Enjoy!!
Lets try with all Solos (Select is NOT yet there), you need b337
Check either Solo are working in both directions. Tip: in the sonar set 12 solos as On/Off/On/Off/... and then move WAI one strip right, check the result, one strip left, check the result.
Last 2 strips are solo for 2 WAI buses (so, corresponding to current fader definitions). Return solos are not processed (yet).
To be consistent, with all solos OFF, press Return 1/2 solo and check (with MIDIOX) which Solo mode it is sending when On/Off. I mean "61 00 0a 05" or "61 00 0a 0d" (or not at all). In other words,
does Return solo also influence this magic "Solo Mode" (for whatever it is good for Y01, even in case we do not observe anything out of it, I prefer to follow Y01 rules).
All solos follow WAI perfectly
Bidirectional communication is correct.
Fader Motors have stopped updating. I can see that MIDI is not coming in to 01V when moving faders on screen. I checked that current software state Motor = On, read automation was on.
The RTN SOLO buttons didn't affect anything in Sonar.
Now that I think carefully about feedback of the SELect function, I think it is best to ignore it for now. My main goal is to use the Sonar onscreen controls as little as possible, and to do all the work from the Yamaha's surface. Let's keep the feedback as simple as we can - fader motors, knob values and status lights. Trying to locate the SELect light out of WAI or move WAI after soloing from sonar may be counter intuitive.
RTN 1 on
61 00 10 0E
61 00 0A 0D
23 01 0E 10 00 Select RTN1 Undefined action list.
off
61 00 10 06
61 00 0A 05
RT2 On
61 00 10 0F
61 00 0A 0D
23 01 0F 10 00 Select RTN2 Undefined action list.
Off
61 00 10 07
61 00 0A 05
RTN 1 SOLO = bank left
RTN 2 SOLO = bank right
Momentary action desired from a latching control. So, when a RTN X solo ON is received, it moves bank and turns RTN X solo off.
Set RTN SOLOs Off during finitDAWMode ??
RTN 1 Rotary Volume
30 00 1A 00 - 7F
RTN 2 Rotary Volume
30 00 1B 00 - 7F
No motor control, but feedback would be good as it does have an LCD representation of the rtn's position. I plan to use the returns as jog and/or shuttle controls.. later.. ;)
Re motors...
Maybe i changed a midi setting by accident.. Will check tomorrow
Quote from: Linzmeister on August 03, 2016, 05:07:07 PM
All solos follow WAI perfectly
Bidirectional communication is correct.
That is good.
Quote
Fader Motors have stopped updating. I can see that MIDI is not coming in to 01V when moving faders on screen. I checked that current software state Motor = On, read automation was on.
I have introduced a logical bug in some "advanced" tuning for faders. I hope attached test preset fix that.
Quote
The RTN SOLO buttons didn't affect anything in Sonar.
Not assigned yet...
Quote
Now that I think carefully about feedback of the SELect function, I think it is best to ignore it for now. My main goal is to use the Sonar onscreen controls as little as possible, and to do all the work from the Yamaha's surface. Let's keep the feedback as simple as we can - fader motors, knob values and status lights. Trying to locate the SELect light out of WAI or move WAI after soloing from sonar may be counter intuitive.
Select is important. If I understand it right, from Y01 perspective it really select the channel. For Sonar, we are going to use it to indicate "focused" strip, for which we control pan,EQ,etc. There are 2 features/problems with that:
1) Solo also send "Select". Since for you that is desired effect, we can call it a feature.
2) Select can be moved to another channel, but I do not know how to "select nothing", in other words turn if off. That should happened when focus in Sonar is outside WAI, since in that case looking at Y01 you can "see" some strip is selected, while you are going to control completely different strip. My current proposal - "select" Return 1 as an indication that focus is moved outside WAI in Sonar.
When operating return "Solo" and "Select", I have to be careful to return the indication back to where it should be.
My plan to start configuring Select if Test9 is fine.
Quote
RTN 1 on
61 00 10 0E
61 00 0A 0D
So return solo also influence Solo "mode". Looking at picture, it can be the these "OD/05" is what controls the LED right of return select buttons (global solo?). We can even try to use it in such (helpful in case no from controlled strips are soloed, but something else in Sonar is). But not now...
Quote
RTN 1 SOLO = bank left
RTN 2 SOLO = bank right
Momentary action desired from a latching control. So, when a RTN X solo ON is received, it moves bank and turns RTN X solo off.
Set RTN SOLOs Off during finitDAWMode ??
RTN 1 Rotary Volume
30 00 1A 00 - 7F
RTN 2 Rotary Volume
30 00 1B 00 - 7F
The idea is good. But let us configure things "sequentially". We can started with strip controls, lets finish them first. We have faders (hopefully working again), Solo (working), Select is next for me, "On" (is that "mute?") is the next for you.
We can then continue with Return controls definitions (but I should make them not influence other operations during Select definition). Return Solo LEDs we can use for something meaningful (like global record armed, automation write enable, "mode" of Y01 in respect to Sonar, once we continue with logic definition).
Quote
No motor control, but feedback would be good as it does have an LCD representation of the rtn's position.
Not sure some numeric value is useful for our purpose. AZ Controller has build-in "Display". If you have some place on your computer monitor(s) which you can dedicated to it (font/size/color are configurable), we can output required information (values, parameter names, current strip name, etc.). Another fancy option, in case you have iPad/Antroid phone/tablet and local wlan, is to use such device as an "extra" (touch sensitive! so be-directional) display/control... But we are far away from that at the moment ;)
One more comment... Y01 has not many "free" buttons/knobs for non strip related operations. Depending on your financial situation, it can be helpful to add some small extra "device" into your setup, something in direction of X-Touch Mini, Korg nano-pad or any other MIDI controller for which you have physical place.
Note that with AZ Controller, any MIDI controller can be configured as an "extension" to another. F.e. you can switch "bank" (WAI), Motor Off, etc. of Y01 using buttons on that additional controller. If on budget, any joystick/gamepad also can be used for that perpose ;)
While I was looking the documentation either there is a way SOLO buttons are not selecting channel (the only statements I have found is that the "normally do", but I have not found how to change it to "abnormal"...), I came to stupid general question: does REMOTE page 3 still work in LOCAL OFF mode? Any reason we are not using it, since it is thought to control DAW at first place, with Faders, Solo and On only, but still ?
Back to our test...
Attached preset should have "SEL" buttons defined. So, these buttons should select corresponding strip (including switching to/from buses when used on channels 13/14, 15/16). SOLO buttons should do the same in parallel with normal Solo operation. Indication should be correct when you focus strips in Sonar (my mouse) or change WAI (so relative focused strip is changes). When focused strip is outside both WAIs, RTN 2 should be "SEL"ected. RTN 1-2 SOLO/SEL buttons should not affect SEL LEDs (except for short time when you press them). Note that RTN SOLO 1-12 LEDs are not defined, so they will change Light/Dark when you press these buttons, that is ok (as I have written before, we can define what they should indicate later).
So, the next step is your bug report (I man your report about my bugs :D ) and "ON" buttons SysExes.
I thought you were going on holidays ???
I don't want to keep you at this while you should be sipping cocktails by the pool, riding horses bare back, taking long walks on the beach at sunset or whatever it is that you do while taking time off.
You have given me so much to think about, but I don't want to reply just yet, because it is all for after initial hardware mapping. I have some good ideas (I think).
Remote Banks have limited functionality.. Fader, On, Solo.. that's it!.. No EQ, no Pan, no dynamics, no Aux sends.... no good stuff
As for the Global Solo Light - I have already turned it Off by choosing:
Quote
Solo: Disabled - doesn't use the GLOBAL Solo Status light, and each soloed channel LED turns on solid - no flashing..
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 61 00 0A 06 F7
so the 61 00 0A 0D and 61 00 0A 05 can be ignored I think
Quote from: azslow3 on August 03, 2016, 07:10:48 PM
Y01 has not many "free" buttons/knobs for non strip related operations.
As I read the AZ controller documentation, there is a means of using modifiers to change the function of controls to do more than one thing depending on modifier control status. see attached screen grab of spread sheet to see where my thoughts are going... scary place inside here... :o 8) ??? :o
Quote from: Linzmeister on August 04, 2016, 05:49:32 AM
I thought you were going on holidays ???
Yes, but not today ;)
So we still have time to fix current setup, define "ON" and may be some "modes". Also I will have my notebook, so I can modify things (AZ Controller is my hobby, holidays is a good time to continue with it)
Quote
I don't want to keep you at this while you should be sipping cocktails by the pool, riding horses bare back, taking long walks on the beach at sunset or whatever it is that you do while taking time off.
More like traffic jams, no oxygen and vodka. Moscow 8)
Quote
Remote Banks have limited functionality.. Fader, On, Solo.. that's it!.. No EQ, no Pan, no dynamics, no Aux sends.... no good stuff
But that are "extra controls" (once in that mode). So we can still use that, in case available with LOCAL OFF. Especially in case you can switch there "fast" (is REMOTE button does that in one step?).
For example, for ACT Dynamic Mapping (ADM). In your "layout", you need first switch to Transport, then press ON 12 for that. Note, that it is better to have buttons in ACT mode (switch bands, switch the effect, etc), and that is not in you layout...
With "extra" Remote mode, we can get: Faders + ON are ADM controls, SOLO are switch controls (transport, move focus to next FX/PC/Synth and switch between them). Interesting either REMOTE mode bi-directional is.
Quote
Quote from: azslow3 on August 03, 2016, 07:10:48 PM
Y01 has not many "free" buttons/knobs for non strip related operations.
As I read the AZ controller documentation, there is a means of using modifiers to change the function of controls to do more than one thing depending on modifier control status. see attached screen grab of spread sheet to see where my thoughts are going... scary place inside here... :o 8) ??? :o
Yes, as many modes as you want. But you should not forget to switch into correct mode ;)
Some comments about your table:
1) we have "SEL", "SOLO" and "ON". But your "Edit" mode has 4 rows.
2) buttons are not "momentary" since they do not sent "release", so ALT, CTRL, SHIFT in your Edit layout are not easy to use
3) "SEL" led is mutual exclusive, in Arm mode, we will be unable to indicate Rec Arm for strips
In general, I have tried to use "Edit" with my StudioMix, so with jogger and several modified (momentary!) keys in the near (I could operate just with one hand, thumb on modifiers). Technically that was perfect, but practically Sonar has too many limitations there, I mean not all operations which are simple with mouse are practical with remote.
The luck of one function is bugging me since years: there is no way to position Data cursor on predictable track. It appears in the track window vertical center, whatever track is there (or nearest). I have even tried to move 300 times "up" and then required track number down, but (invisible for Surface API) folders should be counted.
I skipped preset 9 and went straight to 10:
1) Fader motors are working again.
2) SELect 1-12 focus on WAI track, in track view and mixer view. I use dual monitors with both open all the time
3) SELect 13-14 Focus on WAI Bus, in track view and mixer view.
4) Clicking on track or Bus outside WAI lights RTN2 SEL button
5) SELectng RTN 1 or 2, their SEL light flickers then SEL returns to focused channel.
Beautiful work!!
That is exactly how I was thinking about it too. It means that I can't adjust the EQ of an unknown channel and screw something up that may have been carefully crafted.. You should become a doctor.. they take the Hippocratic oath to "Do no Harm".. you have done precisely that here... prevented me from doing harm to my tracks.. ;)
Channel on/mute buttons. Yamaha buttons are labelled ON not MUTE and means that ON light lit is passing signal, and light unlit is silent, whereas sonar think mute light lit is silent and light unlit is passing signal ...
inverted logic.
receive on message, turn mute off
receive off message, turn mute on
SysEx data in numerical order.. :)
Channel OFF
1 60 01 30 00
2 60 01 30 01
3 60 01 30 02
4 60 01 30 03
5 60 01 30 04
6 60 01 30 05
7 60 01 30 06
8 60 01 30 07
CHannel 0N
1 60 01 30 08
2 60 01 30 09
3 60 01 30 0A
4 60 01 30 0B
5 60 01 30 0C
6 60 01 30 0D
7 60 01 30 0E
8 60 01 30 0F
Channel OFF
9 60 01 31 00
10 60 01 31 01
11 60 01 31 02
12 60 01 31 03
13/14 60 01 31 04
15/16 60 01 31 05
RTN1 60 01 31 06 Mode modifier forms a binary count 00 to 11 (0-3)
RTN2 60 01 31 07 Mode modifier
Channel ON
9 60 01 31 08
10 60 01 31 09
11 60 01 31 0A
12 60 01 31 0B
13/14 60 01 31 0C
15/16 60 01 31 0D
RTN1 60 01 31 0E Mode modifier
RTN2 60 01 31 0F Mode modifier
ST Out 60 01 34 07 Master OFF
ST Out 60 01 34 0F Master ON
I set up a MUTE group containing all channels 1 - 16
and got the following bulk messages:
CH 1-16 on 2 messages
60 01 30 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D 0E 0F channels 1 - 8
60 01 31 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D channels 9 - 15/16
Ch 1-16 off 2 messages
60 01 30 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 channels 1 - 8
60 01 31 00 01 02 03 04 05 channels 9 - 15/16
CH 17-24 Option I/O fader Mode
17 60 01 35 00
18 60 01 35 01
19 60 01 35 02
20 60 01 35 03
21 60 01 35 04
22 60 01 35 05
23 60 01 35 06
24 60 01 35 07
CH 17-24
17 60 01 35 08
18 60 01 35 09
19 60 01 35 0A
20 60 01 35 0B
21 60 01 35 0C
22 60 01 35 0D
23 60 01 35 0E
24 60 01 35 0F
Channels 17-24 can not be put into a mute group through the LCD menus.. I don't know if that impacts on bulk MIDI commands or not. I guess we can try and see what happens - if anything.
Quote from: azslow3 on August 04, 2016, 01:25:38 PM
Some comments about your table:
1) we have "SEL", "SOLO" and "ON". But your "Edit" mode has 4 rows.
2) buttons are not "momentary" since they do not sent "release", so ALT, CTRL, SHIFT in your Edit layout are not easy to use
It is only 2 in EDIT mode. the top 2 rows are the keyboard shortcuts from the sonar documentation and the bottom rows are how I would label the desk to find the functions.. and they are labelled SOLO ON SOLO ON It is a work in progress - just the current state of thinking and still needs refinement.
CTRL, ALT and SHIFT buttons are probably not being utilised properly in that layout either.. lets call that attempt 1 and I'll try again later..
Quote from: azslow3 on August 04, 2016, 01:25:38 PM
3) "SEL" led is mutual exclusive, in Arm mode, we will be unable to indicate Rec Arm for strips
I was thinking quick and dirty - just turn it on with SEL and turn it off with GLOBAL off. not elegant - true... too early to be cutting corners??
Quote from: azslow3 on August 04, 2016, 01:25:38 PM
In general, I have tried to use "Edit" with my StudioMix, so with jogger and several modified (momentary!) keys in the near (I could operate just with one hand, thumb on modifiers). Technically that was perfect, but practically Sonar has too many limitations there, I mean not all operations which are simple with mouse are practical with remote.
I hear the voice of experience - thank you. Something that seems good on paper may not actually work in the studio.. got it. I did try some editing with the number pad on the keyboard during the last weekend. I got lost as to which mode I was in - was I selecting, zooming, cropping, nudging or fading in/out. exit without save... :)
Remote fader banks can be custom configured to include any controls..
bank 1 defaults to bus 1-4 master, aux 1-4 master, FX 1-2 master,with associated master ON on the ON button, 4 unassigned faders and buttons.
bank 2 defaults to input delay ch 1-15/16, and Input delay enable ch 1-15/16
bank 3 defaults to FX 1 parameters on faders, all ON buttons unassigned
bank 4 defaults to FX 2 parameters on faders, all ON buttons unassigned
but but you only get
1 fader and
1 button
per strip and the SELect follows last fader or the last on Button.
All 4 banks are freely editable and could contain any parameter.. faders/aux send/EQ, dynamics controls....
and no access to the RTN 1 + 2 controls
With Option I/O fader mode - PAGE 2, we have access to 8 channels 17-24 only (instead of 14 on remote) but each channel is more feature rich.
Fader,
On/Mute,
Solo,
SELect,
Pan,
5 Bus assignment switches,
2 aux,
2 fx sends,
2 bands of parametric EQ controls (Low, high) - 6 rotaries,
EQ on/off, and
EQ Attenuator
..... per channel strip Maybe optionI/O is a better choice for ADM ??
Pages 1 & 3 are the meters - which are not available in LOCAL OFF mode,
Page 4 is the output routing - not available in LOCAL OFF mode,
Page 5 allows us to swap 17-24 with 1-8 either globally or individually select channels to flip - not something that I will be bothering with for sonar.. 1:1 nice and easy.
Quote from: Linzmeister on August 04, 2016, 04:37:40 PM
I skipped preset 9 and went straight to 10:
...
Beautiful work!!
That is too good to be true ;)
I have a bit tune Select (to process correctly an attempt to select not existing strip, f.e. if you only have 1 track in the project and try to select track 5...). But we are not done with it yet. On picture I see that ST/Master also has Select! Sorry if I have skipped some of your reports, but I can not find what it is sending... May be we can use it as the indication of "outside WAI", instead of RTN2. But we in any case should process it (to revert, the same way as for RTN).
I have implemented ON as mute. Please check. RTN1/RTN2/ST ON are not configured yet.
Quote
Channel on/mute buttons. Yamaha buttons are labelled ON not MUTE and means that ON light lit is passing signal, and light unlit is silent, whereas sonar think mute light lit is silent and light unlit is passing signal ...
inverted logic.
Should work like that (light when not muted, no light when muted or not exist).
Quote
Quote from: azslow3 on August 04, 2016, 01:25:38 PM
3) "SEL" led is mutual exclusive, in Arm mode, we will be unable to indicate Rec Arm for strips
I was thinking quick and dirty - just turn it on with SEL and turn it off with GLOBAL off. not elegant - true... too early to be cutting corners??
That is not a problem to turn On AND Off Rec Arm with SEL button. It is just not possible to indicate which strips are Automation Record Armed with SEL LED, since there can be several. Theoretically I can find the first and indicate it, but that is not so easy and not informative. I propose keep SEL LEDs always indicate selected strip. We probably need it for Pan/Eq in any case.
Quote
Quote from: azslow3 on August 04, 2016, 01:25:38 PM
In general, I have tried to use "Edit" with my StudioMix, so with jogger and several modified (momentary!) keys in the near (I could operate just with one hand, thumb on modifiers). Technically that was perfect, but practically Sonar has too many limitations there, I mean not all operations which are simple with mouse are practical with remote.
I hear the voice of experience - thank you. Something that seems good on paper may not actually work in the studio.. got it. I did try some editing with the number pad on the keyboard during the last weekend. I got lost as to which mode I was in - was I selecting, zooming, cropping, nudging or fading in/out. exit without save... :)
For me the result was not so bad. But my StudioMix has severe hardware problem (all encoders periodically send "Turned left" when I turn them right, faders generate movements on themselves and some messaged are periodically transferred with corrupted bits...). I may be open it, clean it, etc some lucky day. But for the moment it stays unused.
So please test current version, let me know about ST/Master SEL, and if it is ok, I will implement modes. After that we can either continue with Ch 17-24 for ADM or Pan/Eq/RTN Knobs.
Quote from: azslow3 on August 04, 2016, 11:09:31 PM
Quote
Quote from: azslow3 on August 04, 2016, 01:25:38 PM
3) "SEL" led is mutual exclusive, in Arm mode, we will be unable to indicate Rec Arm for strips
I was thinking quick and dirty - just turn it on with SEL and turn it off with GLOBAL off. not elegant - true... too early to be cutting corners??
That is not a problem to turn On AND Off Rec Arm with SEL button. It is just not possible to indicate which strips are Automation Record Armed with SEL LED, since there can be several.
.......
I propose keep SEL LEDs always indicate selected strip.
How about we use the Remote Bank 2 (Input Channel Delay on/off) to control REC Autom~n.
Dedicated switches not required elsewhere by sonar,
status lights and
part of factory default mixer settings.. making it easy for other people to use when we are done.. :)
Quote
We probably need it for Pan/Eq in any case.
True. Follow the natural intuitive flow of the hardware
Quote
I did try some editing with the number pad on the keyboard during the last weekend. I got lost as to which mode I was in - was I selecting, zooming, cropping, nudging or fading in/out.
I did see that the editing functions work in conjunction with Jog. Not having any jog control at the time may have made it more difficult I suppose.
I will test and report tonight.
Quote from: azslow3 on August 04, 2016, 11:09:31 PM
I have a bit tune Select (to process correctly an attempt to select not existing strip, f.e. if you only have 1 track in the project and try to select track 5...).
yup, deleted a bunch of tracks from test project, leaving only 8 tracks.
The instant I deleted them, faders 9-12 went to -inf.
Could not solo or select channels 9-12.
Very nice!!
Quote from: azslow3 on August 04, 2016, 11:09:31 PM
But we are not done with it yet. On picture I see that ST/Master also has Select! Sorry if I have skipped some of your reports, but I can not find what it is sending... May be we can use it as the indication of "outside WAI", instead of RTN2. But we in any case should process it (to revert, the same way as for RTN).
I suspect I omitted it. Apologies.
SEL master
23 01 16 10 00
Quote from: azslow3 on August 04, 2016, 11:09:31 PM
I have implemented ON as mute. Please check. RTN1/RTN2/ST ON are not configured yet.
yup, that works a treat on the tracks. Something not with quite right with the busses though.
01V Channels 13/14 and 15/16 ONs both seem to be linked to WAI Buss 1 Mute.
Change 01V 13/14 ... 15/16 follows - both affect Buss 1 Mute.
Change 01V 15/16 ... 13/14 follows - both affect Buss 1 Mute.
Neither affect buss 2 mute.
Changing Sonar Buss 1 toggles both 01V 13/14 & 15/16 ONs.
Changing Buss 2 does nothing to 01V ON status.
Quote from: azslow3 on August 04, 2016, 11:09:31 PM
After that we can either continue with Ch 17-24 for ADM or Pan/Eq/RTN Knobs.
I think finish off all faders, solo, On & SEL.
Option I/O fader Mode
Faders 17-24 (physically 1-8 on surface, but as soon as I change modes in without PC connected, the faders change position to match the new parameter being controlled)
30 01 XX YY
XX = 07 - 0E is channel number
YY = Volume 00 - 7F
CH 17-24 OFF
60 01 35 XX
XX = 00 - 07
CH 17-24 ON
60 01 35 XX
XX = 08 - 0F
SEL 17-24
23 01 XX 0A 00
XX = 17 - 1E
Solo
61 00 11 [XX]
61 00 0A 0D except last one OFF which sends 0A 05 see below
SEL Message
XX = 00-07 are 17-24 off,
XX = 08-0F are 17-24 on
Aaah Haaa!!!
I just found the pattern to the second solo commands!!! Turning all except the last solo
ON or
OFF sends 61 00 0A 0D
Turning off the last solo sends 61 00 0A
05So, if you receive Last solo off, it might worth verifying that you are in sync with Yamaha by executing UNSOLO all tracks???
I wasn't imagining things or changing solo modes by accident.. Oh I am going to sleep well tonight, having found that 8) :D
Something I noticed by accident:
CTRL+DBL CLICK on sonar fader (to set to unity) *all* track faders move together with respective volumes.. inside WAI and outside WAI.. all 32 tracks in my test project.
I also noticed when CTRL+CLICK on a track fader, there is an orange indicator appears near the fader volume value on all tracks.
Same thing when CTRL+Click on busses.
The main outs move independent unless a stereo pair is locked which is normal
Quote
SEL master
23 01 16 10 00
I have moved "outside WAI" indicator there.
Quote
01V Channels 13/14 and 15/16 ONs both seem to be linked to WAI Buss 1 Mute.
Yes, should be corrected now... Things are more and more complicated, and since I can not really test it, you most probably will hit more and more bugs. Unavoidable, can be frustrating, but please just report them and I will fix them.
Quote
Aaah Haaa!!!
I just found the pattern to the second solo commands!!!
Turning all except the last solo ON or OFF sends 61 00 0A 0D
Turning off the last solo sends 61 00 0A 05
Yup, I know. I am counting "solos" and send corresponding mode. We still do not know what it really does on Y01 side.
Quote
Something I noticed by accident:
CTRL+DBL CLICK on sonar fader (to set to unity) *all* track faders move together with respective volumes.. inside WAI and outside WAI.. all 32 tracks in my test project.
I also noticed when CTRL+CLICK on a track fader, there is an orange indicator appears near the fader volume value on all tracks.
Same thing when CTRL+Click on busses.
Usual group functionality in Sonar. "Ctrl+<action>". It works on selected group, and when nothing is selected on everything.
Ok. Next test is going to be interesting. Or not... if I have manage to break the whole configuration ;)
Channel buttons (On and Solo) now have 5(!) modes, can be switched used ST/Master and RTN1-2 ON buttons, LEDs should follow:
Off - Off - Off : Mute/Solo (default)
Off - Off - ON : Record Arm / Input echo. Note that Record Arm is not working correctly for Instrument Tracks (Sonar bug). Automatic Input Echo is not indicated for MIDI tracks (indicated as off).
Off - ON - Off : Transport. As in your table, but without: Rec. Auto.n, Touch follow (do not know for what these was thought), ACT (not useful here). Transport, strip mode, loop, scrub and punch should have correct LEDs (following Sonar)
Off - ON - ON : Edit. Not defined yet
ON - Off - Off : Read Automation / Write Automation. Should be with correct LEDs.
Master ON switch to Automation mode from any other, RTN ONs turn Master ON off. So only one button press is required to switch from Transport to Automation and back. But 2 buttons required to switch Transport to Record Arm. May be we should disable Edit mode (or move switching it to something else), than switching between other modes will be strait forward.
Oh, WOW... That is so good!!
Quote from: azslow3 on August 05, 2016, 08:31:16 PM
Quote
01V Channels 13/14 and 15/16 ONs both seem to be linked to WAI Buss 1 Mute.
Yes, should be corrected now... Things are more and more complicated, and since I can not really test it, you most probably will hit more and more bugs. Unavoidable, can be frustrating, but please just report them and I will fix them.
yup, all fixed. Not at all frustrating. My day job is Tech Support, Training and Product Development for ROM based Cash Registers, and I rely on the factory in Korea to write firmware code and test it here. Very similar process... except they manufacture the hardware platform, have them in stock and obviously don't test the code they write... and I can wait months for a new version, only to find they have made a colossal error in understanding the basic problem, let alone any possible solution.
You are doing fine!! With no access to the hardware under test, you obviously understand the problem better than I do, and new versions are within hours or a couple of days at most. You have my highest respect and I understand many of the difficulties you face in this remote environment.
Quote from: azslow3 on August 05, 2016, 08:31:16 PM
Ok. Next test is going to be interesting. Or not... if I have manage to break the whole configuration ;)
Channel buttons (On and Solo) now have 5(!) modes, can be switched used ST/Master and RTN1-2 ON buttons, LEDs should follow:
nope, fear not... nothing broken at all. I have full control over mute, solo, REC arm, Input monitor, Read Auto, and write auto.
hmm, 3 buttons - eight combinations.. ;) I can count to 7 in binary ;)
But I do definitely like the simple approach too, which makes for a much faster operation..
Quote from: azslow3 on August 05, 2016, 08:31:16 PM
Off - ON - Off : Transport. As in your table, but without: Rec. Auto.n, Touch follow (do not know for what these was thought), ACT (not useful here). Transport, strip mode, loop, scrub and punch should have correct LEDs (following Sonar)
Rec Auto was there because the previous CS plugin I had used a button with that name.. It doesn't appear to be required here.
I was thinking that the Touch/Follow Automation Off button would cover the overwriting automation with mouse/iPad/ other control idea you mentioned.. I may have misunderstood your line of thinking in this department.
I have realised that we could save a button by putting TRACKS and BUSSES onto a single button. ON is one mode, OFF is the other... I have not yet revised the button assignments and have no idea what I would put in it's place.
Scrub is not something that I have used a lot in the past. I am not sure if it is not working correctly, or if I am using it wrong. I have switched to a current mix project to test the transport buttons thoroughly. When I press the scrub button on 01V, I see the audio engine light in the transport toolbar turns on, but when I press the J button on the keyboard, the mouse cursor changes to include a speaker icon and I can click and drag to scrub an individual track or the entire mix depending on the mouse vertical position on screen.
The sonar help files says to scrub press J and move mouse over a track or the timeline ruler.
The V Studio 700 manual says once scrub mode is activated, use jog and shuttle to listen..
How should scrubbing be done with your plugin?
Are other controls required that are not yet defined?
Can I scrub an individual track and/or the entire mix?
Quote from: azslow3 on August 05, 2016, 08:31:16 PM
Off - ON - ON : Edit. Not defined yet
....
May be we should disable Edit mode (or move switching it to something else), than switching between other modes will be strait forward.
I always find editing to be a slow and painful job - and that may be because it is precisely that. Of course up until now I have had to use keyboard and mouse, but probably not used them well - by not researching the built in keyboard shortcuts and relied too heavily on the mouse and the tools toolbar to change from splitting to cropping to fading in/out. I would like to see if using a control surface makes it any easier.
Most of my mixes are live show recordings - up to 2.5 hours long ... multiple songs per project - mixed down in the order they were recorded. All audio, no MIDI, cutting out spoken word in between live songs, splitting up to 48 tracks at the same point, cropping & fading in each track, splitting, cropping, fading out. I am still discovering the workflow benefits that a CS can truly provide. I do some studio sessions too with a single song per project.
It might be useful to duplicate the scrub function onto the EDIT mode buttons.. and operate with jog/shutttle? As mentioned a couple of days ago, the edit mode buttons need revising. Is there some recommendation that you would make about frequently used tasks given my process and source material?
Quote from: Linzmeister on August 06, 2016, 02:03:19 PM
You are doing fine!! With no access to the hardware under test, you obviously understand the problem better than I do, and new versions are within hours or a couple of days at most. You have my highest respect and I understand many of the difficulties you face in this remote environment.
That is promising. As you can find in some other threads, some people give up after a while once there see something does not work right now.
Quote
hmm, 3 buttons - eight combinations.. ;) I can count to 7 in binary ;)
But I do definitely like the simple approach too, which makes for a much faster operation..
As with computer keyboard, if you can do something by one key, that is perfect. Ctrl+Key OR Shift+Key OR Alt+Key is still fine. Ctlr+Shift+Key... well, still work when that something is not repeatable operation. But Y01 does not have momentary keys, so we have like "NumLock"+"CapsLock" only. To make something not annoying, we should try to avoid routine operations for which you will need to use 2 switches. For example, to overwrite some automation, with current layout you need:
a) press ST ON (automation mode)
b) disable read automation (ON on that channel) and enable write automation (SOLO on that channel)
c) press RTN1 ON for transport mode
d) press "Play" and record the automation with fader, press "Stop"
e) again switch to Automation mode, to adjust automation read/write.
We have already "disable all automation writes", we can add "enable all automation reads" there, in transport. Other approach is to add transport buttons into automation mode, for example on SEL buttons.
But depending what you do more, switch banks or play/pause, may be we should use RTN1-2 SOLO. Up to you (I have not defined these buttons yet).
Quote
I was thinking that the Touch/Follow Automation Off button would cover the overwriting automation with mouse/iPad/ other control idea you mentioned.. I may have misunderstood your line of thinking in this department.
That time I was hoping some buttons can me momentary... That is as I use that: press corresponding button as an indication the control is "touched", overwrite automation with control, release the button. For that to work, we need per fader button. F.e. we can sacrifice "automation read" for that. Other approach is to use Automation read and Overwrite automation mode. Instead of Automation read, we can use "global motor off"... Decisions, decision ;)
Quote
I have realised that we could save a button by putting TRACKS and BUSSES onto a single button. ON is one mode, OFF is the other... I have not yet revised the button assignments and have no idea what I would put in it's place.
It can be that you will be able to assign buttons yourself... Not more difficult than changing keyboard shortcuts in Sonar, at least for simple operations and without LED feedback.
Quote
Scrub is not something that I have used a lot in the past.
Scrub idea is simple: when this mode is on, in case you move "Now" time, using mouse or jog wheel, instead of jumping to new time Sonar start play to this time. Also reversed.
In practice, for most users (including myself) that feature stuck audio quick or does not work at all (with Softsynth). And without jogger... I do not know.
Quote
I always find editing to be a slow and painful job - and that may be because it is precisely that. Of course up until now I have had to use keyboard and mouse, but probably not used them well - by not researching the built in keyboard shortcuts and relied too heavily on the mouse and the tools toolbar to change from splitting to cropping to fading in/out. I would like to see if using a control surface makes it any easier.
Most of my mixes are live show recordings - up to 2.5 hours long ... multiple songs per project - mixed down in the order they were recorded. All audio, no MIDI, cutting out spoken word in between live songs, splitting up to 48 tracks at the same point, cropping & fading in each track, splitting, cropping, fading out. I am still discovering the workflow benefits that a CS can truly provide. I do some studio sessions too with a single song per project.
It might be useful to duplicate the scrub function onto the EDIT mode buttons.. and operate with jog/shutttle? As mentioned a couple of days ago, the edit mode buttons need revising. Is there some recommendation that you would make about frequently used tasks given my process and source material?
I do not have any professional experience with editing/mixing, not even close. My practical application for surfaces is live jamming with myself (home hobby), when I want rec/play, change synth parameters, adjust volume of other tracks. It happens that my DP, MIDI keyboards, (e- and acoustic) guitar, e-drums, mic are not even in the same room. And in each room, the instruments are quite away from computers. That was the reason I have developed AZ Controller. I have thought to adopt cheap devices (including Joystic) to do several simple but sometimes tricky operations. CW plug-ins was not allowing me to do what I want (without "remote control" since assigned remotes interfere with MIDI). And once I have got MPK mini, I decide that I want "feedback" (from LEDs under pads).
Just to understand how all that works, I have learned what Mackie Control does and how other devices are used. I have never seen any console in real life... I have bought used StudioMix just to touch motor faders, to understand what all that about.
My profession is Control Systems, DBs, with experience in automatic/half automatic control and monitoring, including quick reaction situations and routine financial operations. That is why I periodically suggest buttons layouts and function assignments, extrapolating the background how to avoid an operator turn something wrong once there is an "alarm" to what a musician can unexpectedly change in the track... But I guess a neighbor cat can give you better advise on mixing/editing since she at least could see you doing real job ;)
Back to the preset. Have you checked that all LEDs are correct? Arm/Automation/Transport/Loop/etc? The feedback is decoupled from functions, so even in case some button works (that I can partially check "loop sending" corresponding SysEx manually), that does not mean that LED also works (that is hard to test for me, I can just look at resulting SysExes sent, and once WAI/Mode is changed there are too many of them to check byte by byte...).
And finally there will be some pause... I will proceed with Ch17-24 as ACT controls then.
Quote from: azslow3 on August 06, 2016, 04:11:54 PM
We have already "disable all automation writes", we can add "enable all automation reads" there, in transport. Other approach is to add transport buttons into automation mode, for example on SEL buttons.
But depending what you do more, switch banks or play/pause, may be we should use RTN1-2 SOLO. Up to you (I have not defined these buttons yet).
Quote
I was thinking that the Touch/Follow Automation Off button would cover the overwriting automation with mouse/iPad/ other control idea you mentioned.. I may have misunderstood your line of thinking in this department.
That time I was hoping some buttons can me momentary... That is as I use that: press corresponding button as an indication the control is "touched", overwrite automation with control, release the button. For that to work, we need per fader button. F.e. we can sacrifice "automation read" for that. Other approach is to use Automation read and Overwrite automation mode. Instead of Automation read, we can use "global motor off"... Decisions, decision ;)
It turns out to be much simpler than that... Turning off Automation Read per track, allows me to overwrite an individual track... that becomes the touch button(s).. already done... and it only matters when automation level is changing - solid line... When the automation line is dotted, I don't even need to disable the read function. 8) :D
Works beautifully with touch and latch modes!! Overwrite mode makes a mess of things, but hey, 2 outta 3 ain't bad..
See attached images.
Track 1 Touch mode
Track 2 Overwrite mode
Track 3 Latch mode
All fought with my fingers with Read ON. Turn Read OFF, and new automation was recorded in all modes. Turn Read back On and it resumes nicely.
Adding "enable all automation reads" to transport mode does sound like a good idea - perhaps on CH 6 ON button.
Now you have me thinking that RTN 1&2
SEL buttons would be better for BANK -/+, because we don't need constant feedback on banks - and currently when I press the RTN 1&2 SEL buttons, Selected channel already snaps back to the focussed channel or the outside WAI indicator on the Master SEL.
Could
Prev Marker &
Play/Pause be
duplicated on RTN 1&2 SOLO buttons respectively... This means when setting markers, looping and punching I can use the prev marker & Play ON buttons in the Transport mode, and when mixing/writing automation, use prev marker & play by the RTN SOLOs for quicker access??
Some of the buttons are behaving as though they are momentary.
Button LED off --> Press button --> action gets performed --> Button LED turns off automatically.
Home/RTZ,
Prev Marker, Ins Marker, Next Marker,
End,
Global Write Auto Off,
Mark In, set loop to Selection, Set Punch to Selection, Mark Out
Undo, Redo,
Save and Save As
all buttons above behave momentary, which is good and appropriate I think.
ie All except 1 solo light starts at OFF and returns to OFF after pressing. The only SOLO light that stays on after pressing is the Bus WAI button.
Stop, Play, REC, Auto Loop, Auto Punch, Scrub, Tracks, and Bus buttons behave in latch mode, which is also good and appropriate.
Quote from: azslow3 on August 06, 2016, 04:11:54 PM
Quote
I have realised that we could save a button by putting TRACKS and BUSSES onto a single button. ON is one mode, OFF is the other... I have not yet revised the button assignments and have no idea what I would put in it's place.
It can be that you will be able to assign buttons yourself... Not more difficult than changing keyboard shortcuts in Sonar, at least for simple operations and without LED feedback.
Yup, I am trying to follow your configurations, and learn the language.
Quote from: azslow3 on August 06, 2016, 04:11:54 PM
Quote
Scrub is not something that I have used a lot in the past.
Scrub idea is simple: when this mode is on, in case you move "Now" time, using mouse or jog wheel, instead of jumping to new time Sonar start play to this time. Also reversed.
In practice, for most users (including myself) that feature stuck audio quick or does not work at all (with Softsynth). And without jogger... I do not know.
I had a go at setting the RTN 1 Volume to be a jog wheel.. I couldn't get the control to perform jog, but when I pressed play inside the controller, it moved the Now Time and with scrub on, it played the audio.. baby steps...
I don't use any midi instruments so Softhsynths fall nicely into the I Don't Care category.
Quote from: azslow3 on August 06, 2016, 04:11:54 PM
Quote
I always find editing to be a slow and painful job - and that may be because it is precisely that.
It might be useful to duplicate the scrub function onto the EDIT mode buttons.. and operate with jog/shutttle? As mentioned a couple of days ago, the edit mode buttons need revising.
I do not have any professional experience with editing/mixing, not even close.
....
Just to understand how all that works, I have learned what Mackie Control does and how other devices are used. I have never seen any console in real life... I have bought used StudioMix just to touch motor faders, to understand what all that about.
My profession is Control Systems, DBs, with experience in automatic/half automatic control and monitoring, including quick reaction situations and routine financial operations.
The Control Systems experience has served you very well indeed for this application!!
Quote from: azslow3 on August 06, 2016, 04:11:54 PM
Back to the preset. Have you checked that all LEDs are correct? Arm/Automation/Transport/Loop/etc?
Mute, Solo, Rec Arm, Inp Monitor, Automation read and write LEDS all match up perfectly.
Transport button LEDS as mentioned above behave in an appropriate manner per button.
The
only undesirable side effect in Test 12 that I can see, would be that in Transport mode, pressing the SOLO buttons to perform Home, Marker jobs, End etc. also changes Focused/SELected channel because 01V is sending SEL message after every SOLO ON message.
In all other modes it makes sense to select the channel we just soloed, input monitored, or Write enabled. Would a Boolean variable _SoloPressed=Yes/No being set by SOLO message and being reset by SEL message and setting SEL back to focused Channel help here.
Psuedo Code Logic
If Mode=Transport and MIDI IN is Solo message
Do Home/marker/End/Set Loop to Selection etc
SoloPressed = YES
endif
If Mode=Transport and MIDI IN is SEL message
IF SoloPressed = YES then
MIDI out SEL message to indicate current focus,
SoloPressed = NO.
Else
change focus to SELected Channel
endif
endif
crude but demonstrative.
Quote from: azslow3 on August 06, 2016, 04:11:54 PM
And finally there will be some pause... I will proceed with Ch17-24 as ACT controls then.
When you're ready is fine. I have enough already that I can actually finish a mix I have been working on for a while... having EQed and compressed with mouse and keyboard..
well, well, well...
It turns out that after reading the MIDI spec found on the yahoo group much more closely, that the unsolicited message thought to be a ping, is actually a remote Meter request message..
So, I followed the Strip Level Monitoring tutorial and added it into a copy of your work and I was able to get *something* working first go... for a single track as long as MIDIOX has both an input and an output port open to the 01V..
If I close MIDIOX the metering stops working..
If I close either of the MIDI ports IN/OUT in MIDIOX it stops metering.
Not entirely sure what is happening there - may just be MIDIOX feeding back to the 01V and maybe I haven't done anything significant at all.
Maybe it is the 01V sending metering data to AZcontroller... because there is a lot of additional Last MIDI Event activity.
I thought I constructed the command to show the Current track level to the Master meters on the 01V, but I also saw Ch 13 Meters on the Home screen, which is where the sp/dif output from Sonar is going..
Normally there is nothing on the meters in Local Off mode, so something definitely changed, but not sure if I am sending metering to the 01V, or it is sending metering to AZController..
I am starting to look at the Clip Edit Tutorial. trying to understand all the states and feedback you put in place in the 01V preset and looking at the editing preset to see what differences there are. - particularly with the mode feedback.
I am at nice place... with nature and close to no internet ;) So I barely turn on my computer these days.
I think we will send some metering once I am back. I have not found messages we have used so far in yahoo files, so I have probably overseen something.
Enjoy your holiday
I have done a lot of reading of the user manual and the programming you have done in tutorials and the 01V preset. I'm starting to get the hang of the layout.
Variables are Software States created in Options Tab,
Functions are created in Options Tab --> Hardware Controls <New Control> then attaching a new Logical Control to hardware control on the hardware TAB and then "program" is added in the Logic tab.
I still haven't found where you are sending the SYSEX out to the yamy though. I thought it would in the feedback tab - SysEx/Midi begin, append and send... but it is not generating any output for me.. I'm probably using it wrong.
I think the yahoo group documentation is inaccurate..
While trying to do some more work on the metering by myself, I noticed that when I change fader modes, the PING Message changes and when I turn Local Control On, the last PING message has a 00 as the last byte. This matches up with the fact that different screens require different metering.
I am currently adding system hardware controls for the various pages and multiple metering states. I will upload the modified preset when I am done.
Sorry, holidays happened to be more events intensive as I have thought ;)
So I have no time for time intensive and concentrated work (required for presets modifications to not break anything). Also I am preparing the code modification which should significantly simplify the configuration. But I am back home next week, and while there will be another time consuming task (flat change), probably I will find time for the preset.
SysEx sending is done from feedback. But since most messages are send "combined" from many strips, that is done not directly: corresponding monitor save required value into state, mark that value should be sent and trigger yet another monitor. All monitors have correct "priority" set, so all that happens in one go: parameters are checked for changes (for all strips) first, these changes are saves in states, if at least one parameter is changed, (single) generic sending (for one parameter type, f.e. for solo buttons and faders it is different) is triggered.
Note that configuration actively using "call" (== function in conventional programming), so SysEx actions are defined in the "Logic" tab while called from Feedback.
(the following is most complicated for understanding part in AZ Controller concept, but that is what make it so flexible while keeping the configuration reasonably small).
The same Action does different things when executed in different contexts: directly in logic (when MIDI message is processed), during monitoring (to determine either the parameter is changed) and during feedback execution. The concept is used in small subset of conventional programming languages, but it is rather handy in event driven situations (Control Surface logic is event driven, where MIDI messages, parameter changes, transport state, etc. are events which require some attention).
That is better explain by example. Let say we want attach "Mute" button to current track "Mute" parameter in Sonar, with feedback. For "simple" surface (Y01 in local off was not thought to be used that way, so in our preset that is more complicated, but the concept is the same):
For MIDI message from the buttons (let say "CC 10"), the following Logic sequence is defined:
(a) Select "Mute" parameter from "current" track
(b) Toggle selected parameter (1->0 and 0->1)
(c) Monitor parameter value
And in the (c) Monitor, we send current value back (CC 10 Value 0 if not muted, CC 10 Value 127 when muted).
1) When we press the button, (a) and (b) should should, to toggle mute. But (c) should be "ignored" (it is to get value FROM Sonar, not change it).
2) When we check either we should call Monitor, we want only (a) is executed, but not (b) (we do not want toggle all mutes 13 times per second all the time...).
3) If we detect parameter change, we call Monitor. That context is different from (2), it is more like (1). But for good reasons some Actions are working not exactly as in (1).
"Conventional" way is to define 3 separate "Action lists": one for MIDI reaction, another to detect parameter change and third to do something on such change. That is how it will be written f.e. in C++ (CW SDK), JaveScript (some other DAWs...). In each list, the first thing to do is select required parameter. So, the reaction and parameter change detection will be different just in final logic: either change the parameter or check it is changed in Sonar. In AZ Controller that is done inside one definition. Easier to define and keep in sync (physically Sonar parameter, button signal and in case of Y01 internal mixer parameter value are independent "numbers"), but harder to understand initially. Do you remember initial "tests" with faders logic? The difference in configuration was 2-3 actions, and so easy to modify (at least for me), while the difference in what happens behind the scene was big. If I try to do the same in C++, preparation of such "tests" will take ages.
I hope the explanation can help you imagine the spirit of AZ Ctrl ;)
Quote from: Linzmeister on August 01, 2016, 01:59:08 PM
CH SysEx out
1 23 01 00 10 00
.....
15/16 23 01 0D 10 00
OK, While I have been looking at Fader modes and LCD screen menu MIDI data I have uncovered a better understanding of the 23 01 xx yy zz commands..
And another misprint in the yahoo group document
STATUS 1111 0000 F0 System Exclusive Message
ID No. 0100 0011 43 Manufacturer's ID No.(YAMAHA)
SUB STATUS. 0001 nnnn 1n parameter change n=0-15(Device Channel No.1-16)
GROUP ID 0011 1110 3e MODEL ID
MODEL ID 0000 0100 4 Device code (01V)
PARAM TYPE 0100 0011 3 controller (type) sent as 23 even though the HEX says 43 and the decimal says 3
DATA 0000 0001 01 control No.(LCD-Fader mode)
0ddd dddd dd channel select(0-30) This bit we already guessed
0ddd dddd dd LCD select No.(0-17) Fader Mode/Screen
0ddd dddd dd PAGE No.(0-4)
EOX 1111 0111 F7 End Of Exclusive xx = channel select(0-30) 1-31 CH
yy = LCD select No.(0-17) 1-18 Fader Mode / Screen type..
Home/EQ/Dymanics/Send1-4/FX1-2/Option I/O
/Remote/Pan&Routing/View
zz = PAGE No.(0-4) 1-5 Page
Detailed data samples to follow.
I am back home. And I am finalizing new changes in the AZ Controller.
I will rework Y01 preset then (it will be smaller...), fix spotted select issue (with transport buttons), etc. If you want me start from your current preset (you write you have made some changes), please upload it. There is no "merging" functionality for presets (I miss it... but it is a huge work to make it).
I hope you enjoyed you break.
Please find attached the preset with my attempt to add metering. I have added midi mapping for a lot of other controls..EQ, Dynamics, Aux Sends and all the newly discovered meter Requests which I have abbreviated to MR XX, xx being the hex value of the message (highlighted green in the attached image)
Because of the conversation about the meter monitor feedback calling an action from the logic tab which I have not got my head around yet I deleted the feedback which I created just to cleanup a little.
I started this over about 3 times from the test 12 preset because I clicked on the wrong thing and changed a setting I could not remember the original value of.. There are several detached logic controls. I was able to delete many of them, but the ones that remain I could not figure out how to delete - I assume there are references to them somewhere, but I can not see where they are.. I duplicated too many hardware controls by accident and tried to clean up but failed.
I have set all the MR XX and Select buttons (23 01 xx yy zz) to system controls in order to prevent them them from annoying me while I was mapping the rest of the hardware controls..
I have created Software States for the various fader modes and LCD pages which can now be extracted from the 23 01 xx yy zz messages (in table in attached image). I have made the _FaderMode dependent on the _LCDpage... but that may be incorrect logic.
I will use some of the fader modes and pages as modifiers for the PAN control to give me a HPF and LPF and an additional 8 ACT rotary controls.. but that is for a later date.
All the feedback seems to have stopped working. Not only in this preset 13, but also in the unedited test preset 12 which I downloaded a second time to make sure I wasn't working off a dirty copy on the hard drive. I hope I have not done too much damage.
Agrrr.... We have "version clash" now, I have just finished my own v13 and during publishing noticed your upload. Not sure what to do, but I would prefer you test my version first. And once we make it working, I will try to put your changes into it.
Everything can go wrong: we have clash, both version have number "13" (some people think that number is bad) and there was significant changes in AZ Controller, you will need
v0.5r3b340 (just uploaded test version) or later.
But I think we will sort that (also there is preset comparison tool from MarKo, which I can try to use to spot your changes).
So, my v13 should be the same as v12 with the following changes:
Quote from: Linzmeister on August 08, 2016, 02:26:06 PM
Adding "enable all automation reads" to transport mode does sound like a good idea - perhaps on CH 6 ON button.
There.
Quote
Now you have me thinking that RTN 1&2 SEL buttons would be better for BANK -/+, because we don't need constant feedback on banks - and currently when I press the RTN 1&2 SEL buttons, Selected channel already snaps back to the focussed channel or the outside WAI indicator on the Master SEL.
This.
Quote
Could Prev Marker & Play/Pause be duplicated on RTN 1&2 SOLO buttons respectively... This means when setting markers, looping and punching I can use the prev marker & Play ON buttons in the Transport mode, and when mixing/writing automation, use prev marker & play by the RTN SOLOs for quicker access??
And this. RTN2 SOLO LED should indicate Play/Not play in all modes.
Quote
Some of the buttons are behaving as though they are momentary.
Y01 buttons are momentary, the preset tries to make them work as such.
Quote
The only undesirable side effect in Test 12 that I can see, would be that in Transport mode, pressing the SOLO buttons to perform Home, Marker jobs, End etc. also changes Focused/SELected channel because 01V is sending SEL message after every SOLO ON message.
That should work correctly now.
Please check that feedback for everything is still as expected.
If you get no feedback at all, most probably Y01 is in different mode from "standard" (I mean the mode for which we have created the preset). May be some feedback settings are disabled. Also check MIDI settings.
Quote from: azslow3 on September 01, 2016, 05:18:31 PM
Please check that feedback for everything is still as expected.
If you get no feedback at all, most probably Y01 is in different mode from "standard" (I mean the mode for which we have created the preset). May be some feedback settings are disabled. Also check MIDI settings.
OK, the loss of feedback appears to be a CW thing. After loading the new controller version and resetting the config and killing sonar a couple of times and deleting all the controller presets it still remembered preset settings, so I deleted the controller and killed sonar and re-loaded and imported the preset and it all cleared up. Full feedback restored.
Quote from: azslow3 on September 01, 2016, 05:18:31 PM
Quote from: Linzmeister on August 08, 2016, 02:26:06 PM
Adding "enable all automation reads" to transport mode does sound like a good idea - perhaps on CH 6 ON button.
There.
The global Auto. Read & Write buttons don't appear to do anything visible in the sonar mixer - the tracks do not enter read/write mode when pressing the global auto. buttons in transport mode.
The Sonar mixer updates the read and write from Auto. Mode individual channel Auto. read/write commands, but 01V status is always off.
Mouse clicking Auto. Read or Write in Sonar mixer does not update the 01V channel SOLO/ON buttons .. just a feedback thing..
Quote from: azslow3 on September 01, 2016, 05:18:31 PM
Quote
Now you have me thinking that RTN 1&2 SEL buttons would be better for BANK -/+, because we don't need constant feedback on banks - and currently when I press the RTN 1&2 SEL buttons, Selected channel already snaps back to the focussed channel or the outside WAI indicator on the Master SEL.
This.
works a treat. added 40+ tracks and banked up and down with the RTN Select buttons and 01V faders followed beautifully.. :)
Quote from: azslow3 on September 01, 2016, 05:18:31 PM
Quote
Could Prev Marker & Play/Pause be duplicated on RTN 1&2 SOLO buttons respectively... This means when setting markers, looping and punching I can use the prev marker & Play ON buttons in the Transport mode, and when mixing/writing automation, use prev marker & play by the RTN SOLOs for quicker access??
And this. RTN2 SOLO LED should indicate Play/Not play in all modes.
Another resounding success!! prev marker and play/pause and play indicator all work fine.
yup, that will save lots of button presses and speed up the mix process heaps.
Quote from: azslow3 on September 01, 2016, 05:18:31 PM
Quote
The only undesirable side effect in Test 12 that I can see, would be that in Transport mode, pressing the SOLO buttons to perform Home, Marker jobs, End etc. also changes Focused/SELected channel because 01V is sending SEL message after every SOLO ON message.
That should work correctly now.
Spot on!!. Navigating the timeline and all the other Transport solo functions no longer selects the channel. pressing select by itself does select the channel, so perfect all round.
I would call that very positive progress
Still trying to get my head around this:
Quote from: azslow3 on August 26, 2016, 09:30:52 AM
The same Action does different things when executed in different contexts: directly in logic (when MIDI message is processed), during monitoring (to determine either the parameter is changed) and during feedback execution. The concept is used in small subset of conventional programming languages, but it is rather handy in event driven situations (Control Surface logic is event driven, where MIDI messages, parameter changes, transport state, etc. are events which require some attention).
That is better explain by example. Let say we want attach "Mute" button to current track "Mute" parameter in Sonar, with feedback. For "simple" surface (Y01 in local off was not thought to be used that way, so in our preset that is more complicated, but the concept is the same):
I understand sequential programming. GW basic/Qbasic
I understand event driven object oriented programming (VB6/VBA)
I understand inheritance and overriding functions. Java for Android SDK and some C/C++
Is AZC using any of these methods or a different principle again..
Does setting the priority control what happens each time the same action list is called?
Quote from: Linzmeister on September 02, 2016, 02:03:06 PM
Quote from: azslow3 on September 01, 2016, 05:18:31 PM
Please check that feedback for everything is still as expected.
If you get no feedback at all, most probably Y01 is in different mode from "standard" (I mean the mode for which we have created the preset). May be some feedback settings are disabled. Also check MIDI settings.
OK, the loss of feedback appears to be a CW thing. After loading the new controller version and resetting the config and killing sonar a couple of times and deleting all the controller presets it still remembered preset settings, so I deleted the controller and killed sonar and re-loaded and imported the preset and it all cleared up. Full feedback restored.
There was several reports that some surfaces (with feedback) are stop working and the only solution was physically removing all related (directly and indirectly) Sonar configuration files so it regenerates them. But since you just had that, it is the first time I start to think that is real.
If that happens again, please save all "*.ini" files in %APPDATA%/Cakewalk/SonarXXX folder before restoring. It will be nice to give CW an example of such corruption.
Quote
The global Auto. Read & Write buttons don't appear to do anything visible in the sonar mixer - the tracks do not enter read/write mode when pressing the global auto. buttons in transport mode.
Write should work. It should DISABLE automation write if for something it was enabled. So it has no effect if nothing is enabled.
Read had to work. But corresponding Sonar command does not work, even when mapped to keyboard shortcut. I have found "Ctrl+F12" in X3 documentation and I have replaced the action. Does not work in X2 and I can not test in Plat. now.
Quote
The Sonar mixer updates the read and write from Auto. Mode individual channel Auto. read/write commands, but 01V status is always off.
Mouse clicking Auto. Read or Write in Sonar mixer does not update the 01V channel SOLO/ON buttons .. just a feedback thing..
There was a bug in my configuration, please check again.
Quote
I would call that very positive progress
Since Automation read/write feedback was the major change and because of one "typo" that new logic was not engaged at all, we do not know yet ;)
Quote from: Linzmeister on September 02, 2016, 02:27:22 PM
I understand sequential programming. GW basic/Qbasic
I understand event driven object oriented programming (VB6/VBA)
I understand inheritance and overriding functions. Java for Android SDK and some C/C++
Is AZC using any of these methods or a different principle again..
The concept is event driven. But monitoring heavily use yet another concept. I know it from Forth language, not sure it was used before it but I have not see wide use in other languages.
Override defines several different functions with the same name but with different parameters. Override redefine the function (a kind of permanently for particular object). Single function in Forth (btw. there everything is a function, even variables. It is "puristic functional" language) and Actions in AZ Controller (can) do different things in different contexts. In Forth, that is used so you can define compiler functions inside your program, f.e. you can in the beginning of your source code write a Basic interpreter and the rest of the program write in Basic (is it not fascinating? 8) ). In AZ Controller, that is the way to reuse the same list of Actions either to do something (f.e. set mute) and to monitor the same thing in Sonar (to send feedback when mute is changed by mouse). As with Forth, that can enormously reduce the size of the "code" but since that is not used in "usual" languages, the concept is hard to understand.
Practically, the implementation is simple. Imagine that any Action is an Object with 3 methods: ExecuteInLogic, ExecuteDuringMonitoring and ExexcuteInMonitor. F.e. "Set Value" set the value in the first method only, other 2 methods are "empty", "Monitor" Action has the code in the second method only, "Select ACT parameter" has first two defined, "Set State" has all 3 defined (but a bit different way), etc.
Quote
Does setting the priority control what happens each time the same action list is called?
Priority specify in which order monitors should be executed within one monitoring cycle (every 75ms with standard Sonar settings). In Y01 preset case that is quite important. F.e. when strip volume change is spotted, it is not send immediately. It is "waiting" for other strip monitors and trigger "Feedback" monitor. We want "collect" all volume changes before we send any to Y01 (probably you remember aggregate SysEx discussion) so we want that sending happens in the same cycle but after all channel monitors. Even more, it can happened that the mode is changed, and so monitors should start monitor something else... Maintaining the order in the Feedback Tab is rather boring, so I have introduced "Priority". State monitors usually have 0-1 (depending either state change can trigger another state change), channel monitors have priority 3 and sending monitors priority 4.
All together that sounds as an overkill: why not just check state changes, loop over parameters, collect changes and send them in conventional sequential code? In practice, CW MackieControl plug-in has >2500 C++ lines. Mack.Control preset for AZ Ctrl (which has the same functionality, it was created to mimic original C++ code), even outdated (can be significantly reduced using new AZ Ctrl features), is simpler.
As observable example, you can compare Bitwig code for NI S keyboards (written in JavaScript) with MackieTransport preset for AZ Controller. I am sure someone will find JS code simpler to understand. But as soon as things go more complicated, (non interactive) script writing become "real programmer" job. I do not claim everyone can create Y01 preset, even in its current version, but not many people have managed to write it in C++ either . And for me, configuring AZ Controller is much simpler then writing new plug-in in C++ for every device ;)
Well, my priority now is to paint walls in 3+ rooms and move there... So probably this weekend there will be no new versions.
Quote from: azslow3 on September 02, 2016, 05:03:43 PM
Quote
The global Auto. Read & Write buttons don't appear to do anything visible in the sonar mixer - the tracks do not enter read/write mode when pressing the global auto. buttons in transport mode.
Write should work. It should DISABLE automation write if for something it was enabled. So it has no effect if nothing is enabled.
Read had to work. But corresponding Sonar command does not work, even when mapped to keyboard shortcut. I have found "Ctrl+F12" in X3 documentation and I have replaced the action. Does not work in X2 and I can not test in Plat. now.
OK... I am running X2, so it looks like that won't be happening for me.. others may be ok...
Quote from: azslow3 on September 02, 2016, 05:03:43 PM
Quote
The Sonar mixer updates the read and write from Auto. Mode individual channel Auto. read/write commands, but 01V status is always off.
Mouse clicking Auto. Read or Write in Sonar mixer does not update the 01V channel SOLO/ON buttons .. just a feedback thing..
There was a bug in my configuration, please check again.
Individual track Read/Write buttons work better now. Still a minor problem with feedback for On/Solo LEDs.. When I switch from Default or Auto. mode to Transport mode the On/Solo buttons don't refresh to show the transport status. Switching from Edit mode to Transport mode does update the transport LED status. When I first started typing this, switching from Default to Auto. mode didn't update... still some corruption remaining??
I also noticed that pressing RTN 1&2 SOLO to play also changed bank -/+ .
I see you added IgnoreSelect software state - which fixed the transport mode Solo button/SEL messages. The condition in both cases is Transport mode as originally identified by me... a little short sighted I now realize.. as RTN 1&2 Solo operate in all modes and Select indicates focused track.
I tried editing (SysEx:<43>.... Solo Btns 1-8) and also in 9-RTN2:...
I copy and pasted 3 times the
'Mode:Transport' - IgnoreSelect -> Yes I changed the Mode=
Arm,
edit and
Auto respectively which corrected the behavour of channels 1-15/16 in all modes, but not the RTN1&2 Solo buttons.. (Woo Hoo, I did something that worked... partially :) )
In the overview, I can see IgnoreSelect changing Yes/No when I press RTN 1&2, but it is still switching banks when I Play/Prev Marker via RTN Solo Buttons.
Wrong sequence of events?? Rtn Select SysEx being processed before ignore select??
((None)) _SoloRtnX: IgnoreSelect -> Yes ...any mode
MIDI IN:
61 00 10 0F
61 00 0A 0D
23 01 0F 10 00
23 01 16 10 00
Quote from: azslow3 on September 02, 2016, 05:03:43 PM
The concept is event driven. But monitoring heavily use yet another concept. I know it from Forth language, not sure it was used before it but I have not see wide use in other languages.
....
Practically, the implementation is simple. Imagine that any Action is an Object with 3 methods: ExecuteInLogic, ExecuteDuringMonitoring and ExexcuteInMonitor. F.e. "Set Value" set the value in the first method only, other 2 methods are "empty", "Monitor" Action has the code in the second method only, "Select ACT parameter" has first two defined, "Set State" has all 3 defined (but a bit different way), etc.
aahh.. my head hurts.. :) So, I did some research on Forth.. and found some discussion about Context Oriented Programming.. in relation to a different language.. is this the principle in use here?
http://www.jot.fm/issues/issue_2008_03/article4/ (http://www.jot.fm/issues/issue_2008_03/article4/)...
Figure 3 starts to look a little bit like what you are saying.. yes??
So what is the UI mechanism (drop down box, Tab.. thing I have to click on) that you are using to decide which commands from the action list are executed in each context???
.. I can't see it.. yet
Do you have other flags or code, not visible on the UI for determining the context, which are permanently associated with ExecuteInLogc, ExecuteDuringMonitoring and ExexcuteInMonitor?
What is the difference between ExecuteDuringMonitoring and ExexcuteInMonitor... timing??
"during" and "in" are very similar words.
"monitoring" and "monitor" are also very similar words
Quote from: azslow3 on September 02, 2016, 05:03:43 PM
I do not claim everyone can create Y01 preset, even in its current version, but not many people have managed to write it in C++ either . And for me, configuring AZ Controller is much simpler then writing new plug-in in C++ for every device ;)
Well, my priority now is to paint walls in 3+ rooms and move there... So probably this weekend there will be no new versions.
I had a busy weekend also so didn't get to spend as much time at this as I would have liked.. I hope you got the painting done and things moved in. I hate moving house.. making sure that glassware and picture frames are packed so they don't break.. ugh.
Quote from: Linzmeister on September 05, 2016, 04:25:06 PM
Individual track Read/Write buttons work better now. Still a minor problem with feedback for On/Solo LEDs.. When I switch from Default or Auto. mode to Transport mode the On/Solo buttons don't refresh to show the transport status. Switching from Edit mode to Transport mode does update the transport LED status. When I first started typing this, switching from Default to Auto. mode didn't update... still some corruption remaining??
Logical bug in the new code (more precise, I forgot to add one check which has to re-trigger monitor in such situation). Note that Default->Auto is warring, I could not reproduce the bug with that combination and so there is no fix for that. Please check one more time either Default<->Auto can leave indication inconsistent. Please install
b341.
Quote
I also noticed that pressing RTN 1&2 SOLO to play also changed bank -/+ .
I see you added IgnoreSelect software state - which fixed the transport mode Solo button/SEL messages. The condition in both cases is Transport mode as originally identified by me... a little short sighted I now realize.. as RTN 1&2 Solo operate in all modes and Select indicates focused track.
Missing statements in configuration, should be fixed in v15
Quote
I tried editing (SysEx:<43>.... Solo Btns 1-8) and also in 9-RTN2:...
I copy and pasted 3 times the 'Mode:Transport' - IgnoreSelect -> Yes
I changed the Mode= Arm, edit and Auto respectively which corrected the behavour of channels 1-15/16 in all modes, but not the RTN1&2 Solo buttons.. (Woo Hoo, I did something that worked... partially :) )
In the overview, I can see IgnoreSelect changing Yes/No when I press RTN 1&2, but it is still switching banks when I Play/Prev Marker via RTN Solo Buttons.
You understand it right.
Quote
aahh.. my head hurts.. :) So, I did some research on Forth.. and found some discussion about Context Oriented Programming.. in relation to a different language.. is this the principle in use here?
http://www.jot.fm/issues/issue_2008_03/article4/ (http://www.jot.fm/issues/issue_2008_03/article4/)...
A kind of. But much less "theoretical".
Quote
So what is the UI mechanism (drop down box, Tab.. thing I have to click on) that you are using to decide which commands from the action list are executed in each context???
.. I can't see it.. yet
Do you have other flags or code, not visible on the UI for determining the context, which are permanently associated with ExecuteInLogc, ExecuteDuringMonitoring and ExexcuteInMonitor?
What is the difference between ExecuteDuringMonitoring and ExexcuteInMonitor... timing??
"during" and "in" are very similar words.
"monitoring" and "monitor" are also very similar words
Contextes are fixes: if an Action is executed as response to MIDI input, it is "ExecuteInLogic". "During monitoring" mean the list of actions which is in Logic list BEFORE the Monitor Action, which is executed every time the Monitor is checked, so with "Speed" intervals (for Timer and State Monitors, prior action in the Logic list are also executed in this context). "In monitoring" means that monitoring conditions are satisfied (f.e. the value is changed in Sonar) and it is time to execute the Monitor. The action list from the Feedback Tab is always executed "InMonitoring", but in case one of this actions is "Call", corresponding list ("function") from Logic list is also executed in this context.
Quote from: azslow3 on September 02, 2016, 05:03:43 PM
I hope you got the painting done and things moved in. I hate moving house.. making sure that glassware and picture frames are packed so they don't break.. ugh.
One good friend and colleague of me was willing to help with the transfer. But he has not waked up yesterday. I mean he will never wake up... He had no problems with health, he was never smoking or drinking, he was biking every day at least 2 hours (but with all measurements to not overdo), he was under 50 years old... He has left his wife with 3 young children, I can not imagine her emotions and thoughts.
Sorry for off topic.
I'm sorry to hear about your friend. There's no need to apologize about being human. On the internet and as men in general we tend to compartmentalize our thoughts and the portrayal of ourselves (I'm a programmer/dad/gardener/cook/etc) when we are all of those things wrapped into one.
Quote from: azslow3 on September 06, 2016, 05:20:00 PM
Logical bug in the new code (more precise, I forgot to add one check which has to re-trigger monitor in such situation). Note that Default->Auto is warring, I could not reproduce the bug with that combination and so there is no fix for that. Please check one more time either Default<->Auto can leave indication inconsistent. Please install b341.
That all looks good now.
Quote from: azslow3 on September 06, 2016, 05:20:00 PM
Quote
I also noticed that pressing RTN 1&2 SOLO to play also changed bank -/+ .
Missing statements in configuration, should be fixed in v15
also fixed.
I see what you did with the Mode==Default and 'Last action:Failed' - Ignore Select -> Yes
Much cleaner than my clumsy approach.. one "statement" instead of 4.
Would it be advisable to look at adding the recent changes you have made (V13, 14 & 15) into the v13 I created, before the versions become so different that I have to map all the controls again? I added a lot of hardware control mapping - still not complete, but possibly 90% of the controls desired. My v13 has SysEx msgs for Pan, EQ incl On/Off, Dynamics incl On/Off, 6 aux sends, and all useful Metering Requests, channels 17-24 (ACT ??). I attach v13b. I cleaned up the unattached controls and deleted some other messes I made.
I had a quick look at your version, but I have not done anything yet.
In any case, while I have mentioned that before, I want try to explain you my view on Y01 preset again, with more details and the explanation why I see it like that.
Y01 is a digital mixer, with own channels and tons of other internal parameters. Its controls are not thought to be use just for sending some MIDI, they are controlling these internal parameters. And so they try to optimize the procedure of changing these parameters, not bothering to inform outside world what the user is physically doing at the moment. F.e. in case you change EQ band you physically see on Y01, nothing is transfered at all. Note, that in "Local OFF" mode Y01 "think" that Sonar IS another Y01, with all Y01 parameters (and only them).
Obvious strait forward approach is to emulate Y01 parameters on Sonar side and support the whole set of controlling messages for them. Your mapping tend to go this way. But there are several contra to this method:
1) the number of parameters is HUGE, while the number of physical controls is limited. Since Y01 does not inform us when it changes the mode (f.e. AUX1 is pressed), to organize correct feedback and operations (f.e. encoders on Y01 do not send normal for DAW controller "turned right"/"turned left" messages, instead they are just changing some parameter (absolute value) and then changed value is transfered), we will have to keep ALL parameter synced with Sonar. But:
1.a) Sonar ACT API is not really optimized for that, parameter monitoring is "polling", ACT does not support "event driven" approach for that (AZ Controller gives an user a feel it works like that, but it is not). Some numbers: currently we have 16*3=48 parameters to monitor (when we change AZ Controller modes, so switching to Arm or Automation, the number of monitored parameters is NOT changed. Even in case we add another 100 modes, the number of monitored parameters will not change! To support Y01 parameters, we will need to control at least 24*100=2400 parameters, ALL parameters of ALL EQs, compressors, FXes and AUXes for ALL channeles!
1.b) even if Sonar can deal with that (not tested so far), if you let say change the "bank" or initially during startup, all these parameters have to be transfered back to Y01. With real Y01s, I guess that is done with special "scene change" bulk SysEx transfers. I am almost sure Y01 will stuck in case we try to transfer all parameters the way we do now. MIDI is very slow and since Y01 is relatively old, I guess it does not has big buffers (if at all). We will have to "slow down" SysEx transfers, unknown way, by trial.
2) all that does not significantly change the number of physical controls we can use. Effectively, to support just one buttons (f.e. AUX1), we should define at least 24 additional controls/parameters/monitors. At the same time, additional "mode combination" (our ON buttons), while defining 24x3 additional parameters, does not require any extra monitors/controls.
3) many Y01 parameters do not make sense for Sonar, some Sonar parameters have no equivalents in Y01. F.e. we control 12+2 Sonar channels per time only, so all other Pans,EQs,etc. have no meaning (and in fact can not be engaged since we "force select" strip, I mean not all "SEL" buttons really select Y01 channels). Transport, Arm, Dynamic ACT doest not "fit" into Y01 schema nicely.
So far, we have worked with 1-1 Y01 schema only. I mean One hardware Control - One Y01 parameter. Later definitions are no longer so, but because of explained reason, I prefer to use as less Y01 parameter as possible. So, no AUX, etc. modes. In such roadmap:
1) I think one "alternative" strip mapping is a good thing, and "channels 17-24" is a good compromise. "Fader modes", if I understand correctly, are not switching buttons. 17-24 redefines 8 strips only, so not perfect either, but switch all controls (including select). We can use SEL in that mode for momentary operations without feedback (f.e. navigating focused FX), SOLO as operation mode (for this "page" only) (ACT Dynamic Mapping / Sends and banks for dynamic mapping) and ON+Faders as parameter controls
2) Pan+EQ/Comp encoders I will configure as such. But for one strip only (since I know which one is "selected", in Sonar and on Y01 side, I will need only one set of monitors for all EQ/Comp parameters).
I have not checked levels yet.
That is the plan.
I have started defining 17-24, and so far the idea is:
SOLO 17-20 : Mapping Modes with indication, FX, ProChan, Synth, Send
SOLO 21-24 : Mapping Bank with indication (1-4)
SEL 17-23: Focusing corresponding plug-in, without indication
SEL 24: toggle AZ Display, which will show the mapping
ON 17-24 + Faders 17-24 : mapped (ACT Dynamic) parameters, so using 4 banks it will be able to control 4x8 continuous parameters + 4x8 switches per plug-in.
I am writing because there will be some limitations:
a) only 7 plug-ins inside one FX BIN / ProChannel / Rack are going to be directly accessible. If you use more, I have to define some +- buttons (f.e. first 5 are direct, 6 and 7 are +-)
b) in Send mode I can either define 8 sends with volume and on/off or 4 sends with volume/pan/on/post. Also all sends are going to be for one (current) strip. If you normally change sends in parallel, we will define at least one AUX fader mode (with switchable send number, not by AUX1-AUX4 modes...) in addition or instead of that mode on 17-24.
Hi,
You're absolutely right, I was on a very different thought path. My idea was to make Sonar feel like an 01V, using the natural layout and workflow of the surface to control the same paramters in Sonar. Because I use this desk to mix and record live shows, I know the layout and can operate it very quickly..
I appreciate the concern and difficulty of the large control count and associated configuration and data throughput, but was thinking that if the desk can do it live (in linked/cascade mode), the hardware was up to the challenge.. Not having any previous exposure to control surface integration, I thought that was normal...
Having read your previous posts a number of times I can see where you are going.. Some thoughts in response.. Not all completely finalised.. I am still trying to see the implications of some decisions.
1). I have seen enough in AZC now to know that 1 channel of EQ and Compression controls and some config commands will multiply out to lots of channels. When in Eq/compression screens, touching Select on any channel can update the sonar focussed channel, but then AZC can set the 01V back to Select maybe channel 15/16 so EQ/dynamics midi messages received in AZC/sonar are recognisable... The reason for choosing 15/16 is that I can access bus 2 EQ/Comp by changing WAI to busses, but if we chose Ch 1 eq controls to EQ all channels, I have no way of Selecting ch 1 for EQ.. Without pressing Home, Sel 1, EQ ...Maybe..??
2). I would still like to use the EQ Page # to assign the Pan control to HPF and LPF.
3). Wrt to Aux/Fx sends I was planning to use page # to modify from 6 to 12 sends on channels 1 - 15/16, but, using 17-24 and banking, I can access 32, which is far beyond what I would need ... The difference is that I can only adjust sends on 1 channel at a time, whereas the 01V native way allows me to adjust the sends for current fader mode for the current bank of channels.. It is a mental adjustment and also requires more select and banking button pushing.. I don't do much if any send automation (just static levels), but I can see the extra work in monitoring and feedback required to make it operate in native mode.
I also wanted to use the Aux Screen/Page msg to modify Ch Pan to control the Send Pan and the Ch On to control Send On. The reason behind this is that if Sonar mixer track 1, only has a send to reverb, and track 2, only has a send to Delay, they will both be controlled by send 1. Whereas the 01V native way is all channel's send 1 is reverb, all channel's send 2 is delay, so my sonar template always includes all controllable sends.. Just turned off if not currently being used.
As far as pre/post goes I was hoping to use solo button in Aux/FX mode.
If we think about mackie control or VS700C, they both have a rotary control per channel and a rotary mode button which modifies the midi msg in some way... How is that different to the 01V?? Sure, the rotary is actually a motorised fader, but sonar/AZC still have to track the parameter values in the computer and send them to the CS. The 01V is just a little smarter. If AZC sends a value change while 01V is not in that controller mode, it still updates the memory address for that control, so that when the control mode is activated, the values are pulled from local 01V memory, not AZC - or have I missed a critical step in my thinking?
4). I don't use softsynths at all, but i guess it is only one button assignment for completeness should anyone else want to use the preset.
5). I rarely use more than 4 plugins per channel - let alone per bin, so the limitation of 7 is no problem. I buss all reverbs, delays and other FX and only plug in EQ and Dynamics, which ProChan takes care of by default now... The live PA approach - most of the time.
Could your proposed bin selection buttons modify the single channel of EQ and Dynamics controls from ProChan to FX bin just in case I want to use Sonitus/Waves/Slate instead of the ProChan EQ/comp?
Are the ACT bank and mix bank widths going to cause a logical conflict with previous answer?
6). Labelling the desk is getting trickier, with on and solo doing many different things. There is not much space to label the buttons even with neatly printed spreadsheet cells. I get that AZ Display helps, but hand eye co-ordination when looking from computer monitor to control surface takes time. I prefer to have static labels as close to the physical control as possible. I already have 2 labelling strips - 1 above and 1 below the Ch buttons
7). To change ACT selected channel, will I have to go to home screen (1-15/16), Select desired Ch, and then return to Opt IO mode (17-24) ?? I guess if
8). There's another thought that I am struggling to get into sharp focus - about the bin selection and banking buttons and using more than 8 faders and switches per bank. Maybe utulising "Edit" mode spare buttons instead of 17-24. I haven't done any layout thinking yet. I will respond again later if I can clarify the thought over the next couple of days.
In summary: I can see your approach to Dynamic ACT mapping being comfortable to use for EQ, comp, gating, FX plugin parameters etc, but I would like to use the Aux/FX sends in native 01V mode if possible.. This means I am happy to lose all the EQ and Aux/Fx controls on 17-24, and the EQ and comp controls from channels 1-13/14 if we can keep the 6 x Aux/Fx controls on channels 1-15/16 with Screen/Page modifiers.
Is that a more manageable scenario? I am beginning to understand AZC config more and can do the bulk of the copy, paste and tweak a couple of offset values for the Aux config.
Quote from: Linzmeister on September 09, 2016, 04:35:56 AM
Hi,
You're absolutely right, I was on a very different thought path. My idea was to make Sonar feel like an 01V, using the natural layout and workflow of the surface to control the same paramters in Sonar. Because I use this desk to mix and record live shows, I know the layout and can operate it very quickly..
I understand your point, but Y01 with Sonar put some restrictions on that since Y01 does not has good "DAW mode" (IF Y01 could just send each hardware button/fader/encoder operation to Sonar, without any smartness, THEN I could make it control Sonar very close to the way it controls build-in mixer... that is why DAW Controller exists, then can "mimic" anything, but Y01 is not one of them).
Quote
I appreciate the concern and difficulty of the large control count and associated configuration and data throughput, but was thinking that if the desk can do it live (in linked/cascade mode), the hardware was up to the challenge.. Not having any previous exposure to control surface integration, I thought that was normal...
In live, either there is a "total recall" or a small subset of parameter changes. Also they have optimized communications, tested that everything is working and they had access to internal documentation (which is as your could see is still not public). Also they had a team of developers, with devices, with close cooperation with hardware designers.
We are 2 volunteers, without documentation, one of us without the device. And we try to use it not the way it was thought. F.e. I guess you can not "insert" a channel between existing or modify the topology on the fly in general. In Sonar you can.
Quote
Having read your previous posts a number of times I can see where you are going.. Some thoughts in response.. Not all completely finalised.. I am still trying to see the implications of some decisions.
1). I have seen enough in AZC now to know that 1 channel of EQ and Compression controls and some config commands will multiply out to lots of channels. When in Eq/compression screens, touching Select on any channel can update the sonar focussed channel, but then AZC can set the 01V back to Select maybe channel 15/16 so EQ/dynamics midi messages received in AZC/sonar are recognisable... The reason for choosing 15/16 is that I can access bus 2 EQ/Comp by changing WAI to busses, but if we chose Ch 1 eq controls to EQ all channels, I have no way of Selecting ch 1 for EQ.. Without pressing Home, Sel 1, EQ ...Maybe..??
First of all, Y01 EQ/Comp section will work with PC EQ/Comp independent from other modes. For 17-24, you will need to switch between Home and 17-24 to change the channel
Quote
2). I would still like to use the EQ Page # to assign the Pan control to HPF and LPF.
If you mean these 3 encoders, as I have just mentioned, I am going to support them INDEPENDENT from 17-24.
Quote
3). Wrt to Aux/Fx sends I was planning to use page # to modify from 6 to 12 sends on channels 1 - 15/16, but, using 17-24 and banking, I can access 32, which is far beyond what I would need ... The difference is that I can only adjust sends on 1 channel at a time, whereas the 01V native way allows me to adjust the sends for current fader mode for the current bank of channels.. It is a mental adjustment and also requires more select and banking button pushing.. I don't do much if any send automation (just static levels), but I can see the extra work in monitoring and feedback required to make it operate in native mode.
I also wanted to use the Aux Screen/Page msg to modify Ch Pan to control the Send Pan and the Ch On to control Send On. The reason behind this is that if Sonar mixer track 1, only has a send to reverb, and track 2, only has a send to Delay, they will both be controlled by send 1. Whereas the 01V native way is all channel's send 1 is reverb, all channel's send 2 is delay, so my sonar template always includes all controllable sends.. Just turned off if not currently being used.
As far as pre/post goes I was hoping to use solo button in Aux/FX mode.
If we think about mackie control or VS700C, they both have a rotary control per channel and a rotary mode button which modifies the midi msg in some way... How is that different to the 01V?? Sure, the rotary is actually a motorised fader, but sonar/AZC still have to track the parameter values in the computer and send them to the CS. The 01V is just a little smarter. If AZC sends a value change while 01V is not in that controller mode, it still updates the memory address for that control, so that when the control mode is activated, the values are pulled from local 01V memory, not AZC - or have I missed a critical step in my thinking?
I guess you still do not understand the major difference between between Y01 and a DAW controller like Mackie of VS700: DAW controller do NOT know encoder parameters, what you see as "a ring", is completely INDEPENDENT from the encoder control and has no "parameter" behind (the same for buttons LEDs). So, these devices are dumb, but for DAW controlling that is good.
We currently dealing with close to the following situation. Let say your control ProTools with Mackie. And then you want control Sonar from it, but you only see ProTools, so you see what Mackie is DOING WITH PROTOOLS, not what user is doing with Mackie, in which mode it is, etc. In our situation, we see what Y01 surface is doing with Y01 digital mixer part, but not what user is doing with the surface.
Back to the configuration, I see that you want control sends for channels in parallel. Point taken. But we will not do this using several "Y01 pages", we should find another way... As I wrote, that problem is not to let faders control sends. I just do not want monitor ALL sends on ALL channels just because you can occasionally press "AUX3" and Y01 does not inform anyone that you have done that.
Quote
5). I rarely use more than 4 plugins per channel - let alone per bin, so the limitation of 7 is no problem. I buss all reverbs, delays and other FX and only plug in EQ and Dynamics, which ProChan takes care of by default now... The live PA approach - most of the time.
Could your proposed bin selection buttons modify the single channel of EQ and Dynamics controls from ProChan to FX bin just in case I want to use Sonitus/Waves/Slate instead of the ProChan EQ/comp?
While control surface can insert plug-ins, it can not "modify" them. Also there is no information that some plug-in "is EQ", except for ProChannel (which get it from older Sonar's "filters"). But in proposed 17-24, you can control any plug-in, selected by type ("SOLO" buttons) and by number ("SEL" buttons). Including ProChannel EQ/Comp (which you will be able to control separately by encoders).
It is possible to add SPECIFIC plug-ins into configuration, as I will do with PC EQ/Comp. But that will be "hardcoded". ACT Dynamic mapping does not requires that.
Quote
Are the ACT bank and mix bank widths going to cause a logical conflict with previous answer?
These "banks" are completely independent.
Quote
6). Labelling the desk is getting trickier, with on and solo doing many different things. There is not much space to label the buttons even with neatly printed spreadsheet cells. I get that AZ Display helps, but hand eye co-ordination when looking from computer monitor to control surface takes time. I prefer to have static labels as close to the physical control as possible. I already have 2 labelling strips - 1 above and 1 below the Ch buttons
When you start to work with plug-ins, the only solution is AZ Display. Note that you can make it in appear in any size/font/color. In case you are going to use different EQs only, you can map let say HPF in each of them to the same fader. But for arbitrary FX, that is not going to work.
Quote
7). To change ACT selected channel, will I have to go to home screen (1-15/16), Select desired Ch, and then return to Opt IO mode (17-24) ?? I guess if
Yes.
Quote
8). There's another thought that I am struggling to get into sharp focus - about the bin selection and banking buttons and using more than 8 faders and switches per bank. Maybe utulising "Edit" mode spare buttons instead of 17-24. I haven't done any layout thinking yet. I will respond again later if I can clarify the thought over the next couple of days.
Using "Edit" (or more!) modes for FX/ACT/Send is even simpler then defining 17-24. But our whole problem that there is no more "switches" which send something, like do "ON"/"SEL"/"SOLO". And so, we I forced to utilize some "pages". But please, not ALL of them, that will be nightmare!
Quote
In summary: I can see your approach to Dynamic ACT mapping being comfortable to use for EQ, comp, gating, FX plugin parameters etc, but I would like to use the Aux/FX sends in native 01V mode if possible.. This means I am happy to lose all the EQ and Aux/Fx controls on 17-24, and the EQ and comp controls from channels 1-13/14 if we can keep the 6 x Aux/Fx controls on channels 1-15/16 with Screen/Page modifiers.
Sorry, but that is exactly what we should avoid... There are some limits in what is desired with some peace of hardware.
Try think about it different way: in case you can find a place (and ~$60) for X-Touch Mini near your Y01, we can add Sends "pages" in no time and close to no effort. If we try to implement what you propose, we will spend days/weeks without any warranty on success and possible glitches/crashes during operations. With X-Touch mini you also get 8 real encoders with rings in addition.
The man who has developed old Y01 plug-in was smart, that is why he has not tried to go above an "easy" level. I think we have already gone a bit future, but we should not detouch ourself from the reality :)
Quote from: azslow3 on September 09, 2016, 03:35:57 PM
As I wrote, that problem is not to let faders control sends. I just do not want monitor ALL sends on ALL channels just because you can occasionally press "AUX3" and Y01 does not inform anyone that you have done that.
Ahh, if the main problem is that the 01V does
not inform us when Fader mode is changed, rest easy...
It does notify when the fader mode/page is changed.
In the 23 01 xx yy zz messages that I have been discussing recently.. the
yy is the
Fader Mode or
Screen.
ID No. 01000011 43 Manufacturer's ID No.(YAMAHA)
SUB STATUS 0001nnnn 1n parameter change n=0-15(Device Channel No.1-16)
GROUP ID 00111110 3e MODEL ID
MODEL ID 00000100 04 Device code (01V)
PARAM TYPE 01000011 03 controller (type) somebody screwed something up here
Sent as 23DATA 00000001 01 control No.(LCD-Fader mode)
0ddddddd dd channel select(0-30)
0ddddddd dd LCD select No.(0-17)
also means fader mode 0000dddd dd PAGE No.(0-4)
EOX 11110111 F7 End Of Exclusive
In some screens, the fader mode doesn't change:
First 8 Screens including EQ and Dynamics - the faders control Ch 1-15/16 level
With the next 8 Screens Fader mode does change - the faders control FX1-2, Ch 17-24, user config data, Aux 1-4 and different data is sent
The zz is the page number. every time a SELect key is presed,Every time a fader mode key is pressed, it sends 23 01 xx yy zz
see the left table of midi messages attached here
http://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,322.msg1711.html#msg1711
Each screen/Fader Mode/yy has a unique value we can read.
Re-interpreting the "SEL 1-24" msgs to also read the yy and the zz values and save them into software states Screen and Page will give us the information we require... yes?
If it helps, maybe update a Software State "FaderMode" as a combination of Screens with pages which change FaderMode and Screens which don't - leaving faders controlling Ch 1-15/16 volume ie the first 8 screens so that we can check whether faders are Aux1 or Aux 7, Ch1-15/16 or 17-24??
Does that change anything?
Are you concerned about:
A) monitoring a large number of controls in total or
B) monitoring a large number of controls simultaneously for processing time?
If it is only a matter of timing, and you have a way to de-activate the unseen controls, sure, only monitor the controls for the current screen/fader mode as per the 23 01 xx yy zz msg.
ok,
I have found a way to extract the Screen #, Fader Mode and Page # from the 23 01 xx yy zz data. I am sure there is going to be a more elegant method using a function call instead of duplicating this mess into all Select SysEx, but this updates the engine state (only when channel 1 is selected) for all menu options except Option IO (which usually selects Ch 17) and Remote (which usually selects Bus 1)
Yamaha 01V (Local Off) MOD LM13C export @ 10/09/2016 5:39:06 PM
==============================================
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 23 1 0 ) Sel 1 :
- _Ch -> 1
- 7bit value from SysEx position 0
- '_Val' from MIDI value
'_Val:0' - _Screen -> Utility, set engine state
'_Val:1' - _Screen -> MIDI, set engine state
'_Val:2' - _Screen -> Setup, set engine state
'_Val:3' - _Screen -> View, set engine state
'_Val:4' - _Screen -> Dynamics, set engine state
'_Val:5' - _Screen -> EQ, set engine state
'_Val:6' - _Screen -> Phase/Delay, set engine state
'_Val:7' - _Screen -> Pan&Routing, set engine state
'_Val:8' - _Screen -> FX 1, set engine state
'_Val:9' - _Screen -> FX 2, set engine state
'_Val:10' - _Screen -> Option I/O, set engine state
'_Val:11' - _Screen -> Remote, set engine state
'_Val:12' - _Screen -> AUX 1, set engine state
'_Val:13' - _Screen -> AUX 2, set engine state
'_Val:14' - _Screen -> AUX 3, set engine state
'_Val:15' - _Screen -> AUX 4, set engine state
'_Val:16' - _Screen -> Home, set engine state
'_Val:17' - _Screen -> Memory, set engine state
- _Val <= 7
'Last action:OK' - _FaderMode -> Ch 1-15/16, set engine state
- _Val == 8
'Last action:OK' - _FaderMode -> FX 1, set engine state
- _Val == 9
'Last action:OK' - _FaderMode -> FX 2, set engine state
- _Val == 10
'Last action:OK' - _FaderMode -> ACT, set engine state
- _Val == 11
'Last action:OK' - _FaderMode -> Busses, set engine state
- _Val == 12
'Last action:OK' - _FaderMode -> Aux 1, set engine state
- _Val == 13
'Last action:OK' - _FaderMode -> Aux 2, set engine state
- _Val == 14
'Last action:OK' - _FaderMode -> Aux 3, set engine state
- _Val == 15
'Last action:OK' - _FaderMode -> Aux 4, set engine state
- _Val >= 16
'Last action:OK' - _FaderMode -> Ch 1-15/16, set engine state
- 7bit value from SysEx position 1
- '_Val' from MIDI value
'_Val:0' - _LCDPage -> 1, set engine state
'_Val:1' - _LCDPage -> 2, set engine state
'_Val:2' - _LCDPage -> 3, set engine state
'_Val:3' - _LCDPage -> 4, set engine state
'_Val:4' - _LCDPage -> 5, set engine state
'Last action:Failed' - Undefined *
- Call ((None)) _Sel Select(_Ch) :
- Parameter Value Monitor
- Parameter Name Monitor
- Call ((None)) _Sel 1-12 Set(_Ch) :
Quote from: Linzmeister on September 10, 2016, 12:57:29 AM
Quote from: azslow3 on September 09, 2016, 03:35:57 PM
As I wrote, that problem is not to let faders control sends. I just do not want monitor ALL sends on ALL channels just because you can occasionally press "AUX3" and Y01 does not inform anyone that you have done that.
Quote
Ahh, if the main problem is that the 01V does not inform us when Fader mode is changed, rest easy... It does notify when the fader mode/page is changed.
...
The zz is the page number. every time a SELect key is presed,Every time a fader mode key is pressed, it sends 23 01 xx yy zz
I have not understood before that the message is sent on PAGE/SCREEN changes, I have thought the information is included, but only wehn SEL buttons are used. That is the "game changer"!
Quote
Does that change anything?
Everything, you can forget my concerns ;)
Quote
Are you concerned about:
A) monitoring a large number of controls in total or
B) monitoring a large number of controls simultaneously for processing time?
If it is only a matter of timing, and you have a way to de-activate the unseen controls, sure, only monitor the controls for the current screen/fader mode as per the 23 01 xx yy zz msg.
(B) and exactly what you write, if we know current fader mode/screen, there will be exactly one monitor per hardware fader (so the number of monitors will not change, I will just have to select correct parameter (currently Volume) depending from known mode, send feedback on mode change to correct Y01 "parameter" (since aggregated, that is just 4 SysExes for all faders) and assign all incoming MIDI related to faders to the same logical controls (the number of such messages is not a problem, also I can optimize that).
The only problem left is time.... I am in transfer, then I will have no Internet at home till the end of the month. So please be patient.
Excellent!! :D :D :D
Sorry it took so long to express it clearly.
Anytime I select a channel, it tells me which channel, screen and page,
Anytime I select a fader mode, it tells me which channel, screen and page
Anytime I change a page it tells me which channel, screen and page.
Time I can cope with. Hope all goes well with the move.
Hi,
I have moved, at least I do not have keys for old flat. But I am still try to organize my new room/studio, I have to put all my music instruments and working computer at one place (everything was spread over several rooms before). Other family members obviously take all the time (lite, kitchen, furniture, etc.). And so the only my "toys" which work are DP (was easy to connect) and acoustic guitar (no connection needed ;) ) . No computer, no Internet.
I had a look at your mapping at mod, and I have some questions to understand the whole picture.
1. I forgot how you switch to channels 17/24, also either that produce any message
2. I see "Bus 1 ... 4", "Aux 1..4" and "Fx 1..2" controls. Which buttons are sending these messages?
3. I see "Aux" and "FX" Fader Mode buttons (on Y01 picture). But I do not see Bus buttons...
4. I see "Sel Aux/FX/Bus", does that mean Sel buttons send different messages in Aux/FX/Bus mode? And what the meaning let say "Sel 3" button has in FX mode? Also does SOLO/ON buttons still send the same messages in all Fader modes?
I probably could find the answers looking in docs, but I guess for you that is not too complicated to answer since you work with the device all the time ;)
Hi Alexey,
All that reorganizing takes time and effort. I hope life begins to settle back into normal patterns for you.
Addressing your numbered points:
1. Channels 17-24 are accessed via the Option IO fader mode button. Pressing Opt IO will send 23 01 [CH#17 - 1E] 0A (page 00 ~ 04) If last time before I exited Opt IO mode; I had selected Ch 18 and was viewing page 3, it will go to Ch 18 and page 3 upon returning to Option IO mode.
2. Bus 1-4, Aux 1-4, Fx 1-2 are faders not buttons (there are Aux and Bus ON buttons, but I forgot to map them..).
There are 2 ways to access the Aux, FX and Bus faders:
Busses 1-4 can be accessed from:
Pan & Routing Page 3, 23 01 XX 07 02 via on screen virtual faders operated by moving the cursor to select a virtual fader and using the data wheel to change level.
Remote Page 1 23 01 xx 0B 00 - faders 1-4 control busses 1-4 (default programming.. can be changed)
Aux1-4 or FX1-2 can also be accessed by 2 methods:
Remote Page 1 - faders 5-8 control Aux 1-4 (default programming.. can be changed)
faders 9-10 control FX 1-2 (default programming.. can be changed)
When Aux1-4 or FX1-2 Fader Mode is pressed and lit, the RED master fader becomes the Aux x Master or FX x Master and transmits a different SysEx message. Think of an analog sound desk which has Aux master level knob/fader to adjust the level going to a foldback amp.
Pressing Aux1-4 or FX 1-2 Fader Mode buttons send:
FX 1 23 01 XX 08 [00 - 02] Master Fader sends different SysEx msg
FX 2 23 01 XX 09 [00 - 02] Master Fader sends different SysEx msg
AUX 1 23 01 XX 0C [00 - 01] Master Fader sends different SysEx msg
AUX 2 23 01 XX 0D [00 - 01] Master Fader sends different SysEx msg
AUX 3 23 01 XX 0E [00 - 01] Master Fader sends different SysEx msg
AUX 4 23 01 XX 0F [00 - 01] Master Fader sends different SysEx msg
XX is CH#. This stays on the same value that was transmitted on previous channel select button
3. There is no dedicated Bus fader Mode. Bus levels are changed as stated above by pan& routing page 3 (on screen virtual fader) and Remote page 1 physical faders 1-4
4. Ahh, yes, we can probably delete "Sel Aux/FX/Bus".. I got carried away.. They would be the Stereo Master Select button (Out of WAI indicator). Normally... when in Aux/Fx fader mode, pressing the master Select button allows me to access the EQ and Dynamics for the Aux/Fx sends, but..
a) I forgot about the out of WAI indication,
b) in Remote Fader Mode there is no EQ or Dynamics accessible on the desk so it wouldn't work the way I was originally thinking anyway.. I thought I could have WAI width of 14 Tracks and 14 Busses with EQ and Dynamics on all of them by using the Remote Fader Mode Page 1. Now with clearer thoughts I can have 14 tracks with EQ and Dynamics, but the 14 busses would be fader level and mute (maybe one other button) only, until I changed from Tracks to Busses with the transport mode buttons already programmed to change WAI to 14 Busses only and control the busses with Home fader mode strips 1-14 - which is already working.
The only reason for wanting WAI width of 28 is less keystrokes.. faster operation, less thinking about which Mode I am in Edit, Automation, Mute/Solo, Transport... to find the Track/Busses buttons.. If I can just tap a dedicated control on the surface to do quick bus mixing/level automation. Detailed work would require going to transport mode and selecting WAI Bus mode of course.
Select buttons 1-14 will still transmit the same 23 01 XX message in Aux/Fx fader mode, but the fader mode and page number (YY ZZ) will match the current values for those parameters as documented above and in the table at http://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,322.msg1711.html#msg1711 (http://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,322.msg1711.html#msg1711).
Solo and ON buttons 1-14 still transmit the same messages when in Aux/Fx mode... I would however like them to do different things in Sonar.. ie Send x On/Off... send x Pre/Post.. the 23 01 xx YY ZZ will be the key to that decision.... later..
In Option IO mode they send different messages - CH 17-24 On/Solo Which I have highlighted in the preset with *** around the function name. Because turning ON a new SOLO button also sends the SELect msg, at the moment the desk changes to the home fader Mode, because the Select msg being echoed by AZC has the YY and ZZ values for the Home Screen and Page 1 (00)..
The default programming of Remote Fader Mode, Page 1, Bank 1, strips 1-10 is:
the Select buttons send the same message 23 01 [00-0D] 10 00
the ON buttons send different SysEx messages as programmed by screen selection.. defaulting to Bus 1-4 ON, Aux 1-4 ON, FX 1-2 On
the SOLO buttons are disabled.. no function
the faders are bus1-4, Aux 1-4, FX 1-2
The last 4 channel strips are unassigned by default.. I can programme any 01V parameter I like (eg: FX 1 reverb time) in there and use it for Busses 11-14 in AZC.
I don't intend to use page 2
The default programming of Remote Fader Mode, Page 2:
the first 6 Select buttons are MMC Locate commands
the Solo buttons are disabled
the first 6 ON buttons are MMC Transport commands
the faders are disabled - No function
The default programming of Remote Fader Mode, Page 3:
the Select buttons transmit the same messages 23 01 xx 0B 02.
the faders transmit CC messages and the Solo and On switches transmit Note On/Off messages.
It may be better to use Page 3 for the bus and Aux/FX masters as it has a fader and 2 buttons instead of a fader and 1 button provided by page 1..
I hope that answers more questions than it raises.
Aaaaaarrrrrggggghhhhh!!!! Now I get it! Light bulb moment right here.
Ok, my apologies.
I have just realised, I don't need WAI width of 28, with 14 tracks and 14 busses.... Because when I touch remote page 1 or 3 (whichever we decide to use) yamy will send a message identifying selected channel, REMOTE screen and page#, which then allows us to change from tracks to busses, the same way the button on the transport mode does.
I am slowly getting my head around the AZC way of thinking.
Quote from: Linzmeister on September 27, 2016, 12:28:26 AM
Aaaaaarrrrrggggghhhhh!!!! Now I get it! Light bulb moment right here.
Ok, my apologies.
I have just realised, I don't need WAI width of 28, with 14 tracks and 14 busses.... Because when I touch remote page 1 or 3 (whichever we decide to use) yamy will send a message identifying selected channel, REMOTE screen and page#, which then allows us to change from tracks to busses, the same way the button on the transport mode does.
I am slowly getting my head around the AZC way of thinking.
:)
Now I see that you have understood the concept!
We just need all these "mode" buttons to set some Software States, and then use these states in ONE Logical control per physical control of Y01 (fader, on/solo/sel, EQ/Pan) to select what it does (easy part) and react on/send correct SysEx (challenging part since the number of messages per control is huge, also include "group sending" for several controls and updates after mode change).
I am progressing with my "studio room" setup, my gear is already functional. The Internet had to be connected today, but that has not happened... So I hope to have time for the preset in a couple of days.
This is getting scary... Another light bulb moment...
Now I see why you only want 1 MIDI message per physical control.... and I can see a way to get there with both you and the yamy being happy.. For example: utilising the pages of the home fader mode, we can access 14 Sonar tracks, 14 channels of ACT with more buttons and rotaries per channel than my original thinking permitted and 14 Busses with full EQ control and less button pressing.... And banking that is the same width for all modes... Much more uniform software control and fewer hardware controls..
There are options on the 01V Utility menu to automatically open the EQ and Pan&Routing screens when you move the appropriate control which would change the AZC controls mode. I have always had these turned using the desk for a live mix... I turned the AutoPan option off weeks ago to allow the Pan to work as AZC HPF/LPF/Send Pan, and last night I turned off the AutoEQ option to allow for more controls in ACT and Bus modes. I rarely use HPF and LPF on busses, so it is no sacrifice.
EDIT: Actually, if the Dynamics and EQ screens only update Pan Mode in AZC and leave Tracks/ACT/Busses mode alone, I can have more ACT rotaries and full Bus control./EDIT
Channels 17-24 and the Remote fader pages (previously busses in my thinking) are redundant, less functional and harder to integrate, because of the different MIDI messages and limited channel count per fader mode/bank and lower control count per strip.
I have succeeded in assigning the various pages of the aux/Fx Fader Modes to different software states for Sonar sends, and also mapped the Pan control to 18 different modes ... Track Pan, 14 Send Pans, HPF, LPF and track Gain - which may require a third party plugin ??? ... With more possibilities remaining that I haven't found a need for yet. The Pan control doesn't actually do anything yet, but the underlying logic is in place.
I have also expanded the select function I wrote to work with all channels using a call from each Sel function, which means that changing screens/fader modes is fully integrated with every channel select. I am sure it could still do with some tidying up/shortening, but it actually works..
QuoteNow I see why you only want 1 MIDI message per physical control.... and I can see a way to get there with both you and the yamy being happy..
On further reflection... no I can't :( - I can only reduce the messages a physical fader sends to a count of 7 (channel level, and 6 Aux/Fx levels), but I can't make it 1 message per fader.
On another note I have realized that I can set multiple Action (Pre)conditions per Action Configuration/Statement, which reduced the length of the Action List/Function and the text of the Last Control Actions list on the Overview Tab quite a lot.. This tells me that the Action Conditions are effectively an IF programming construct. If X==A AND Y==B AND Z==C Slowly putting the pieces together. :):):) Those deceptive little drop down boxes can do so much more than I initially thought... So I have modified my Screen page function as shown below.
I did try to get clever and delete the _PanMode Software State, thinking that the _FaderMode would tell me everything I needed to know, but then I realized that _PanMode needed 4 more states than _FaderMode (Gain, HPF, LPF, PAN).
With this configuration, I can control 14 sends on Ch 1, and 15 busses, all without changing WAI from 14 Tracks 0 busses 0 mains. I don't have any feedback on the channel aux sends, or Bus Masters.
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 23 1 0 ) Sel 1 : - Call
((None)) _fScreenPage : - _Ch -> 1
'Last action:Failed' - Undefined *
- Call ((None)) _Sel Select(_Ch) :
- Parameter Value Monitor
- Parameter Name Monitor
- Call ((None)) _Sel 1-12 Set(_Ch) :
((None)) _fScreenPage :
- 7bit value from SysEx position 0 - '_Val' from MIDI value
'_Val:0' - Screen -> Utility Doesn't currently do anything special 3 pages Available for Modes
'_Val:1' - Screen -> MIDI Doesn't currently do anything special 5 pages Available for Modes
'_Val:2' - Screen -> Setup Doesn't currently do anything special 5 pages Available for Modes
'_Val:3' - Screen -> View Doesn't currently do anything special 3 pages Available for Modes
'_Val:4' - Screen -> Dynamics
'_Val:5' - Screen -> EQ
'_Val:6' - Screen -> Phase/Delay Doesn't currently do anything special 4 pages Available for Modes
'_Val:7' - Screen -> PanRouting 4 pages Available for Modes
'_Val:8' - Screen -> FX 1
'_Val:9' - Screen -> FX 2
'_Val:10' - Screen -> Option I/O
'_Val:11' - Screen -> Remote
'_Val:12' - Screen -> AUX 1
'_Val:13' - Screen -> AUX 2
'_Val:14' - Screen -> AUX 3
'_Val:15' - Screen -> AUX 4
'_Val:16' - Screen -> Home
'_Val:17' - Screen -> Memory Doesn't currently do anything special and probably never should. I don't want to mess with my scenes :)
- 7bit value from SysEx position 1 - '_Val' from MIDI value
'_Val:0' - Page -> 1
'_Val:1' - Page -> 2
'_Val:2' - Page -> 3
'_Val:3' - Page -> 4
'_Val:4' - Page -> 5
'Screen:Dynamics' - _PanMode -> Gain, set engine state
'Page:1' 'Screen:EQ' - _PanMode -> HPF, set engine state *
'Page:2' 'Screen:EQ' - _PanMode -> LPF, set engine state *
'Screen:Pan&Routing' - _PanMode -> Pan, set engine state * 'Page:1' 'Screen:FX 1' - _FaderMode -> SFX 1, set engine state
'Page:1' 'Screen:FX 1' - _PanMode -> SFX 1 Pan, set engine state
'Page:2' 'Screen:FX 1' - _FaderMode -> SFX 2, set engine state
'Page:2' 'Screen:FX 1' - _PanMode -> SFX 2 Pan, set engine state
'Page:3' 'Screen:FX 1' - _FaderMode -> SFX 3, set engine state
'Page:3' 'Screen:FX 1' - _PanMode -> SFX 3 Pan, set engine state 3 Pages - 3 different effects Bus sends and masters
'Page:1' 'Screen:FX 2' - _FaderMode -> SFX 4, set engine state
'Page:1' 'Screen:FX 2' - _PanMode -> SFX 4 Pan, set engine state
'Page:2' 'Screen:FX 2' - _FaderMode -> SFX 5, set engine state
'Page:2' 'Screen:FX 2' - _PanMode -> SFX 5 Pan, set engine state
'Page:3' 'Screen:FX 2' - _FaderMode -> SFX 6, set engine state *2
'Page:3' 'Screen:FX 2' - _PanMode -> SFX 6 pan, set engine state 'Page:1' 'Screen:AUX 1' - _FaderMode -> Send 1, set engine state 2 Pages, 2 Different Bus Sends and Masters.
'Page:1' 'Screen:AUX 1' - _PanMode -> Send 1 Pan, set engine state *4
'Page:2' 'Screen:AUX 1' - _FaderMode -> Send 2, set engine state
'Page:2' 'Screen:AUX 1' - _PanMode -> Send 2 Pan, set engine state
'Page:1' 'Screen:AUX 2' - _FaderMode -> Send 3, set engine state
'Page:1' 'Screen:AUX 2' - _PanMode -> Send 3 Pan, set engine state
'Page:2' 'Screen:AUX 2' - _FaderMode -> Send 4, set engine state
'Page:2' 'Screen:AUX 2' - _PanMode -> Send 4 Pan, set engine state
'Page:1' 'Screen:AUX 3' - _FaderMode -> Send 5, set engine state
'Page:1' 'Screen:AUX 3' - _PanMode -> Send 5 Pan, set engine state
'Page:2' 'Screen:AUX 3' - _FaderMode -> Send 6, set engine state
'Page:2' 'Screen:AUX 3' - _PanMode -> Send 6 Pan, set engine state
'Page:1' 'Screen:AUX 4' - _FaderMode -> Send 7, set engine state
'Page:1' 'Screen:AUX 4' - _PanMode -> Send 7 Pan, set engine state
'Page:2' 'Screen:AUX 4' - _FaderMode -> Send 8, set engine state
'Page:2' 'Screen:AUX 4' - _PanMode -> Send 8 Pan, set engine state For a Total of 14 bus sends (8 mix busses, 6 FX busses )
'Screen:Home' - _PanMode -> Pan
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 0 24 ) Ch Master : - _Ch -> 15
- _Pos -> 1, in own ctrl. only
- 7bit value from SysEx position 0 + <_Pos>
'Last action:Failed' - Undefined *
- WAI Bus Volume - Call ((None)) _fCh Set(_Ch) :
'Moved(_Ch):No' 'Motor:On' - Parameter Value Monitor
- Parameter Name Monitor
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 0 1c ) Aux 1 : - _Ch -> 15
- _Pos -> 1, in own ctrl. only
- 7bit value from SysEx position 0 + <_Pos>
'Last action:Failed' - Undefined *
'_FaderMode:Send 1' - WAI Bus +1 Volume
'_FaderMode:Send 2' - WAI Bus +2 Volume - Call ((None)) _fCh Set(_Ch) :
'Moved(_Ch):No' 'Motor:On' - Parameter Value Monitor
- Parameter Name Monitor
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 0 1d ) Aux 2 : - _Ch -> 15
- _Pos -> 1, in own ctrl. only
- 7bit value from SysEx position 0 + <_Pos>
'Last action:Failed' - Undefined *
'_FaderMode:Send 3' - WAI Bus +3 Volume
'_FaderMode:Send 4' - WAI Bus +4 Volume - Call ((None)) _fCh Set(_Ch) :
'Moved(_Ch):No' 'Motor:On' - Parameter Value Monitor
- Parameter Name Monitor
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 0 1e ) Aux 3 :
- _Ch -> 15
- _Pos -> 1, in own ctrl. only
- 7bit value from SysEx position 0 + <_Pos>
'Last action:Failed' - Undefined *
'_FaderMode:Send 5' - WAI Bus +5 Volume
'_FaderMode:Send 6' - WAI Bus +6 Volume - Call ((None)) _fCh Set(_Ch) :
'Moved(_Ch):No' 'Motor:On' - Parameter Value Monitor
- Parameter Name Monitor
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 0 1f ) Aux 4 :
- _Ch -> 15
- _Pos -> 1, in own ctrl. only
- 7bit value from SysEx position 0 + <_Pos>
'Last action:Failed' - Undefined *
'_FaderMode:Send 7' - WAI Bus +7 Volume
'_FaderMode:Send 8' - WAI Bus +8 Volume - Call ((None)) _fCh Set(_Ch) :
'Moved(_Ch):No' 'Motor:On' - Parameter Value Monitor
- Parameter Name Monitor
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 0 25 ) Fx 1 :
- _Ch -> 15
- _Pos -> 1, in own ctrl. only
- 7bit value from SysEx position 0 + <_Pos>
'Last action:Failed' - Undefined *
'_FaderMode:SFX 1' - WAI Bus +9 Volume
'_FaderMode:SFX 2' - WAI Bus +10 Volume
'_FaderMode:SFX 3' - WAI Bus +11 Volume - Call ((None)) _fCh Set(_Ch) :
'Moved(_Ch):No' 'Motor:On' - Parameter Value Monitor
- Parameter Name Monitor
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 0 26 ) Fx 2 :
- _Ch -> 15
- _Pos -> 1, in own ctrl. only
- 7bit value from SysEx position 0 + <_Pos>
'Last action:Failed' - Undefined *
'_FaderMode:SFX 4' - WAI Bus +12 Volume
'_FaderMode:SFX 5' - WAI Bus +13 Volume
'_FaderMode:SFX 6' - WAI Bus +14 Volume - Call ((None)) _fCh Set(_Ch) :
'Moved(_Ch):No' 'Motor:On' - Parameter Value Monitor
- Parameter Name Monitor
((None)) _fCh Select(_Ch) : '_FaderMode:Ch 1-15/16' - WAI Strip +<_Ch> Volume *
'_FaderMode:Send 1' - Send (_Ch)+0 parameter Volume *
'_FaderMode:Send 2' - Send (_Ch)+1 parameter Volume *
'_FaderMode:Send 3' - Send (_Ch)+2 parameter Volume *
'_FaderMode:Send 4' - Send (_Ch)+3 parameter Volume *
'_FaderMode:Send 5' - Send (_Ch)+4 parameter Volume *
'_FaderMode:Send 6' - Send (_Ch)+5 parameter Volume *
'_FaderMode:Send 7' - Send (_Ch)+6 parameter Volume *
'_FaderMode:Send 8' - Send (_Ch)+7 parameter Volume *
'_FaderMode:SFX 1' - Send (_Ch)+8 parameter Volume *
'_FaderMode:SFX 2' - Send (_Ch)+9 parameter Volume *
'_FaderMode:SFX 3' - Send (_Ch)+10 parameter Volume *
'_FaderMode:SFX 4' - Send (_Ch)+11 parameter Volume *
'_FaderMode:SFX 5' - Send (_Ch)+12 parameter Volume *
'_FaderMode:SFX 6' - Send (_Ch)+13 parameter Volume *
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 0 27 ) Aux 1 Ch 1 : Just copy and pasted Ch 1 Fader
- _Ch -> 1
- _Pos -> 1, in own ctrl. only
- 7bit value from SysEx position 0 + <_Pos>
'Last action:Failed' - Undefined *
- Call
((None)) _fCh Select(_Ch) : - Call ((None)) _fCh Set(_Ch) :
'Moved(_Ch):No' 'Motor:On' - Parameter Value Monitor
- Parameter Name Monitor
same same same
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 0 63 ) FX 2 Ch 1 : 6th copy and paste of Ch 1 Fader
- _Ch -> 1
- _Pos -> 1, in own ctrl. only
- 7bit value from SysEx position 0 + <_Pos>
'Last action:Failed' - Undefined *
- Call ((None)) _fCh Select(_Ch) :
- Call ((None)) _fCh Set(_Ch) :
'Moved(_Ch):No' 'Motor:On' - Parameter Value Monitor
- Parameter Name Monitor
Quote from: Linzmeister on October 01, 2016, 03:23:16 PM
QuoteNow I see why you only want 1 MIDI message per physical control.... and I can see a way to get there with both you and the yamy being happy..
On further reflection... no I can't :( - I can only reduce the messages a physical fader sends to a count of 7 (channel level, and 6 Aux/Fx levels), but I can't make it 1 message per fader.
Yes, that is why I have mentioned that this part is "complex" ;)
Quote
On another note I have realized that I can set multiple Action (Pre)conditions per Action Configuration/Statement, which reduced the length of the Action List/Function and the text of the Last Control Actions list on the Overview Tab quite a lot.. This tells me that the Action Conditions are effectively an IF programming construct. If X==A AND Y==B AND Z==C Slowly putting the pieces together. :):):) Those deceptive little drop down boxes can do so much more than I initially thought... So I have modified my Screen page function as shown below.
http://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,11.0.html
It covers everything except monitoring.
PS. I am still without Internet at home and extra busy (at work and home). That is going to continue at least another week. Sorry.
Thank you, I have seen the programming for musicians post. I am quite familiar with everything that is written there. It explains quite well the fundamentals of logic and operators and operands of pretty much every language ever written
The thing that page is missing is how to say IF, AND, Start loop, End Loop... with the drop down boxes in AZ controller. I am getting very comfortable with the interface now, but it just takes a little time.
I have been merging your version 15 with my version 13 and other changes I made. I have an idea to modify the Select feedback to include the current screen# and page# which I have successfully deciphered.
I'll send you the merged updated preset when I am done.
Hi Alexy,
After putting the preset configuration aside for a while to focus on other projects, and the holidays, I am back into thinking about it again. Please see the attached attempt at merging the previous versions. I know I have broken a couple of things, which I can't figure out how to fix. I tried to change the WAI width from 12 Tracks, 2 Busses, 1 output, to 14 Tracks, 1 Bus.
I made changes to the Select buttons functions _Sel 1-12 Set(_Ch) & _Sel 13-16 Set(_Ch). That may be the source of my problem, but I have finished thinking through it correctly. RTNs 1&2 Select buttons also show problems now in that it will move a bank left and right, but not as expected. RTN1 moves WAI to Chs 1-14 and RTN2 moves WAI to Ch 28-41. Multiple presses of either button do not move additional banks left or right, always those 2 banks of 14 tracks.
I am aware that the ordering of the functions is getting a little messy too.
I used the AzCtrlExp tool to export and the Total commander file comparison to match up everything I could see. I couldn't see any of the Monitor priorities in the export so I may have completely screwed them up.
I have added the _fScreenPage Logic which accompanies the SELect MIDI message which also has WAI commands - some of which may well be poorly thought out at this stage.
I had bad feeling that I left this preset in unfinished state. Good we can return and polish it.
I am in the middle of new and rather interesting for me development, partially AZ Controller related but mostly pure accessibility tools. And I have promised to fix yet another related preset for AZ Controller. So I can not jump to your preset right now. But I will look within several days and let you know when we can continue.
It was me who left it unfinished.
My studio is not air conditioned and it is summer here. It has been too hot to spend much time in there.
I think I found one of the errors I introduced.
On the RTN 1&2 SELect buttons, (for some unknown reason) I have changed WAI +/- 12 to Selected Track +/- 14..
I will change, test and verify tonight..
I am still in my "new generation screen reader" staff..
Your guess is correct, you need WAI as the reference (current - 14 is always the same, till current is changed)
For 14 strips: you have difference between your _Sel(1-12) Set and _Set(13-16). Before they was doing different things, but now you want all 14 control the same strip type. So you no longer need _Set(13-16) and have to replace calls to it to (1-12) in "Sel (13/14)" and "Sel (15/16)" controls. Also do not forget to do the same change in "Sel (13/14) : :Parameter Value Monitor" (and 15/16) feedback (I mean you should no longer call "_Sel 13-16 ValMon(_Ch)" there, but "_Sel 1-12 ValMon(_Ch)")
And I presume that in:
((None)) _Sel 1-12 ValMon(_Ch) :
I need to add:
'_Ch:13' - Selected -> 13, set engine state
'_Ch:14' - Selected -> 14, set engine state
Ah... yes. In general since you have the device, the probability you notice something should be added is hi ;)
Hi Alexy,
Are you finished with your screen reader? I see a lot more activity here recently. I have not done very much myself since posting last.
One of the things that I am struggling with is to get the screen and page modes working. Your original _Sel Feedback function is:
_Sel Feedback : : State Monitor
- SysEx/MIDI+: Begin: f0 43 10 3e 4 23 1
'Selected:17' - SysEx: End: 16 10 0 f7 *
- SysEx/MIDI+: Append: position of (Selected)
- SysEx: End: 10 0 f7
My updated and broken attempt which is supposed to allow Screen and Page Mode switching is:
_Sel Feedback : : State Monitor
- SysEx/MIDI+: Begin: f0 43 10 3e 4 23 1
- SysEx/MIDI+: Append: position of (Selected)
- SysEx/MIDI+: Append: (_ScreenNum)
- SysEx/MIDI+: Append: (_PageNum)
- SysEx: End: f7
What is the purpose of the bold line in your functional version? Is that the Out of WAI indicator?
As I am writing this I think I should try:
_Sel Feedback : : State Monitor
- SysEx/MIDI+: Begin: f0 43 10 3e 4 23 1
'Selected:17' - SysEx/MIDI+: Append: 16
'Last action:Failed' - SysEx/MIDI+: Append: position of (Selected)
- SysEx/MIDI+: Append: (_ScreenNum)
- SysEx/MIDI+: Append: (_PageNum)
- SysEx: End: f7
I have also noticed that when the 01V is in LOCAL ON mode, that it still transmits and responds to received MIDI. I think we need to add a line at the start of MIDI received Logic functions and also during Sonar initiated feedback:
if LOCAL=ON Do Nothing and end (Undefined *)
I know you have created a Hardware/Software State for this, but I am not at my studio computer at the moment - just thinking through some exports I saved into my dropbox.
Quote from: Linzmeister on April 21, 2017, 02:42:09 AM
Are you finished with your screen reader? I see a lot more activity here recently. I have not done very much myself since posting last.
I have progress here and there.. but things go slooowly. Screen reader is probably going to be endless story. One chapter is going to be finished this weekend, but that it not the end.
To rework the preset or answer any questions I have to dive into it again. I no longer remember fine details.
So many things are pending, everything is interesting and everything looks like "one step away". I need a time plan which I do not have :(
Sure. I realise it has been several months since thinking about this preset. I am having to familiarise myself with the structure too.
Is it possible to move the WAI for the bus through midi command - like banking through tracks? I have changed to 14 tracks, 1 buss from the original 12,2,1 configuration. I want to have the master fader control the bus of the selected Aux/Fx mode for some screen/page changes. Of course, I can drag the on screen WAI indicator with the mouse, and the 01V master fader responds to a different Sonar bus correctly already.
I do quite a lot of bus automation, so wanted faster access to the bus faders.
With the _fScreenPage function I made, I can now use the pages of the home screen to toggle between track and busses, with feedback (faster than hitting transport then track or bus buttons on channel 12), but 01V ch 1 fader and Master fader move to the same value at the same time ... Getting the same MIDI message from AZ and WAI bus 15 is not controlling any 01V fader. I changed WAI to 0 tracks and 15 busses and set strip ->Bus and focus to mains view.
I have still got the Select feedback a little screwed up, but I am getting closer to working, by saving a copy of the preset and deleting things that I have added from one copy to find the offender. A process of elimination. Almost correct now.
There is exactly one WAI region for each strip type. But it is possible to make "internal" wai by creating Some state (1...128) and changing it like WAI (so making strip selection this state dependent and add +-1 state to move).
Ok,
So if tracks 15-28 are in WAI range, I can move the bus WAI from 1 to X without changing tracks WAI because they are different strip types?
So I would use something like the _Ch State and set it to the desired value?
May be I have not completely understood you question, but yes, you can move Bus WAI independent from Track WAI.
Strip Bus WAI +1
WAI
Shift but WAI one bus right , leaving track WAI where it is.
Excellent. Beautiful. The fact that I could move the bus wai with mouse hinted that to me that it was possible. And I figure instead of using an offset I could use an absolute value also.. 8) So I can jump to any given bus when changing fader modes... Need to verify if the bus exists in the current project - if last action ok/failed somewhere...
Today, I fleshed out the aux sends a little. I can now control 14 sonar aux sends with the 01V motorised faders by using aux/fx screens and pages. Something is not quite right as only physical fader 1 works. I have to select each channel and always use fader 1. I basically copied the Ch Volume settings and did a little edit to call next aux(x)channel(1 ... 14).
There is no feedback to 01V yet. I'll keep going doing what I can for now, and when you have some time I'll post the current version. I have been using the TEXT as a kind of debug/comment/reminder in areas where I know there are faults, but can't see how to fix them. Very handy when reading through the export to be prompted where to do more research.
Hi Alexy,
I think I have gone as far as I can without assistance. Please see attached.
I have added a _Local state because I have noticed that when 01V Local control is ON, Sonar is sending commands to the mixer that weren't helpful. I had to unplug the 01V Midi IN cable while I was trying to use the mixer a couple of times. When Receiving Local OFF SYSEX, I call the _fInitDAWMode I need to put tests into the feedback routines to stop the interference.
Known Faults with version 16K:
((None)) _fCh Select(_Ch)
- 01V Channel Fader 1 controls all 14 Aux Sends on whichever Channel is selected
Faders 2-14 do nothing visible..
((None)) _fScreenPage :
Successfully moved Bus WAI independant of Track WAI 8)
01V Ch 1 Fader and Master Fader are both controlling Sonar Buss 1 Fader.. I want Master Fader to Control Buss 1, and channels to control busses 2-15
I have tried a couple of different ways. I may not have deleted all the unused and irrelevant bits yet..
I have moved the Tracks/Buss from Channel 12 Buttons to Home Screen Pages 1 & 2. quicker to get to..
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 0 1c ) Aux 1 : - (SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 0 26 ) Fx 2 :
Setting _Ch to 25 ~ 30 for Aux and FX sends to keep clear of input channels
Successfully moves the correct Sonar bus Fader depending on current 01V Aux/FX screen & page 8)
[/size] If I look at _Ch on the overview tab - it updates to 25~30 when I move an 01V AUX/FX Master fader, but [/font]((None)) _fCh Val Mon(_Ch) :[/font][/size] is either not triggering or does not display the correct value.
[/size]No Feedback on Aux/Fx tracks or BussesI mostly fixed the feedback on the Select Buttons, but it is broken again. Out of WAI and Banking Left/Right buttons not behaving correctly. I can select the Master Fader - which you didn't permit - rejected the selection and set it back to previous value Can only move 1 bank right and then 1 bank left to starting at Ch 1Last time it was in the _Sel Feedback : : State Monitor routine. but that looks like I left when I got it working.
Any Assistance greatly appreciated as always.
I have started to remember what that preset is :D
As I have mentioned before, taking the knowledge that we can detect Screen/Page/FaderMode, the preset should be rewritten. Brute force method is not going to work well, we can abuse Sonar (things will become extremely slow...) and we will loose the control over what is going on.
That sounds dangerous, but it is not :o
I have started but not yet finished, please give me 1-2 days. I will probably break almost everything, I currently target Faders operations with Volumes/Sends in corresponding "_FaderMode".
The preset will be MUCH smaller than it is now, I will REMOVE all your "AuxYY Ch ZZ" (and such) controls, while making corresponding messages working ;)
But since you have asked, it make sense to answer on two from your questions:
* fCh Select is not working correctly because you should select the channel before Send (so WAI + _Ch should be executed in Aux mode as well)
* feedback is "hardcoded" to send channel volume, so even when you control AUX (Sends) it is currently sending the send value as the volume value and since Y01 is in Sends mode, it is not moving faders.
Updated preset will have only several "input" controls, f.e. all faders in all modes will be processed by "<43 10 3e 04 30 00>" and "<43 10 3e 04 30 01>". The next byte will be processed (so, 128 possible values) and calls corresponding Ch1-Ch14/15 (and some other) controls. In other words "Ch1" will be called on Volume 1, Aux1 1 ... Aux4 1 , Fx1 1 ... Fx2 1 and so on. Since _FaderMode is known (I will set it correctly on incoming message as well, just for safety, while it should be set when you change pages), there is no reason to have 14*7=98 independent controls, just 14 will work better!
I have understood that a half an year ago, but have not implemented. My bad. But unlike "Sonar for Mac", I do not say "sorry, but that is the end". Instead I say "sorry, but we will make it" ;)
Ok, that is the first test version. Many things are probably (some for sure) broken. Please just check only the part I mention here explicity:
Latest test version of AZ Controller is required, b360.
Only faders (except Master) should work!
* Switch to Local Off mode ( so it works at all)
* Switch to Home, check Tracks (14) volumes can be controlled (with feedback)
* Press AUX1, check the first send volume works (with feedback) for 14 tracks
* Press AUX2 ... FX2 and check corresponding sends are controllable (with feedback).
Please report what you observe.
Notes: master fader IS broken. Do not switch screens/pages, not yet there. There are 6 sends in total AUX1-4 + FX1 and FX2 (not what you have defined, see later).
A bit how it works (or at least planed to work...).
* All fader input (in all modes) is processed using "Fader Input 00" and "Fader Input 01" actions. Based on SysEx, they determine which Channel control should be used (so "Ch 1" is used many times!). Bundled messages (several neighbor faders movement) should be processed correctly (in all modes).
* HWFaderMode state is really Hardware dependent state. That is not the same a your "_FaderMode". It is important to understand there are (and should be) different. The first determines from where we expect signal from 01y and where we should send feedback. The second can (currently not!) determines what faders should control in Sonar. While there is some logical binding between them (you are going to control sends by faders in AUX hardware mode), that is the only connection. Later I will adopt your "_FaderMode".
* most tricky part is the feedback, based on "HWFaderMode" and "_Ch", it should compose correctly bundled when possible updates and send them with correct (for the mode) SysEx. Bundling is not always the same, f.e. in Home mode, channels 13/14 and 15/16 can be bundled with channel 12. In other modes not.
* effectively there are only 14 (later 22) Sonar parameters are controlled for faders within the preset. Based on Y01 fader mode / page / etc. these parameters will be different. But there is only one place to change what we control and I have removed all your "AUX/FX 1...24" controls (the same will happened with encoders, once we get there).
Important questions about faders:
1) do I understand it right that AUX3 and AUX4 do not support Ch17-24?
2) when you change not "Fader mode" section screens or any pages, does that change hardware fader mode? I mean if you select Dynamics and your faders was in AUX4, do faders still control AUX4?
That was quite a re-write. So much new material. and very quick for the thought detail that goes into doing it.
Quote from: azslow3 on April 25, 2017, 07:45:48 PM
Only faders (except Master) should work!
* Switch to Home, check Tracks (14) volumes can be controlled (with feedback)
* Press AUX1, check the first send volume works (with feedback) for 14 tracks
* Press AUX2 ... FX2 and check corresponding sends are controllable (with feedback).
Please report what you observe.
Notes: master fader IS broken.
All Input faders control tracks... and the CH Master controls Sonar Master too..
Initially Aux 4 Fader Mode did nothing visible. On the Overview Tab, I noticed in Faders Input 00: after Compare Value<87, it was setting to Aux 3 instead of Aux 4. 3 mouse clicks later and Aux 4 was working.
After that one edit All Aux/FX fader modes controlled Sonar Aux send 1-6 rotaries on all 14 tracks.
No Motor feedback on any faders in any mode - Track volume or sends
[/size]Quote from: azslow3 on April 25, 2017, 07:45:48 PM
Important questions about faders:
1) do I understand it right that AUX3 and AUX4 do not support Ch17-24?
2) when you change not "Fader mode" section screens or any pages, does that change hardware fader mode? I mean if you select Dynamics and your faders was in AUX4, do faders still control AUX4?
[/size]1) Correct Ch 17-24 only have Aux 1&2, FX 1&2, 2 Bands of EQ (Low & High), and NO Dynamics processing at all. These channels normally correspond to the Optional I/O card installed in the back panel. [/size]2) Excellent Question !! NO. [/size]The top 8 Screen buttons do not have LEDs. [/size] Pressing any of the first 8 buttons lights the HOME LED [/size]and the faders revert to channel volume.
Quote from: Linzmeister on April 26, 2017, 02:47:37 PM
That was quite a re-write. So much new material. and very quick for the thought detail that goes into doing it.
Ya... but with some immediate bugs :o
Quote
Initially Aux 4 Fader Mode did nothing visible. On the Overview Tab, I noticed in Faders Input 00: after Compare Value<87, it was setting to Aux 3 instead of Aux 4. 3 mouse clicks later and Aux 4 was working.
After that one edit All Aux/FX fader modes controlled Sonar Aux send 1-6 rotaries on all 14 tracks.
You understand how it works! Brilliant!
Quote
No Motor feedback on any faders in any mode - Track volume or sends
Agrr... As you know, since I do not have the device, the only way to check the feedback for me is sending some different SysExes back to AZ Controller (different to avoid triggering again and loop back means they are not sent to real device). I forgot to change that to real behavior, sorry. Try attached preset.
Quote
Correct Ch 17-24 only have Aux 1&2, FX 1&2, 2 Bands of EQ (Low & High), and NO Dynamics processing at all. These channels normally correspond to the Optional I/O card installed in the back panel.
Do you mean Faders are in general used in EQ and Dynamics mode? That is not yet accounted in my current preset. I have thought EQ/Comp are controlled by encoders only... Which message Channel 1 fader sends in EQ mode(s)?
Quote
Excellent Question !! NO.
The top 8 Screen buttons do not have LEDs.
Pressing any of the first 8 buttons lights the HOME LED and the faders revert to channel volume.
Good to know (and
I have to remember that). But that is in contradiction to my previous guess. If faders are revert to volume when you press EQ, how they control EQ then?
Sorry, I remember I have tried to understand the documentation. But that aspects are not clearly explained there, I mean which controls switch to which mode after when buttons pressed.
For us that is very important.
Let me try to explain the big picture one more time, but in another words (such view came into my mind today morning):
* Y01 "think" it controls another Y01 when we use it with Sonar, so it assumes that "remove" mixer has all >>1000 parameters directly accessible to be controlled
* in practice, Y01 can control only limited set of parameters at any particular time, that number is equal to the number of real physical controls on it
* the "game changing" discovery your did was the fact Y01 also transfer NOT parameter changing operations, like selection of screen, pages and fader modes. Probably to "mirror" or remote mixer, but that way we always KNOW which parameters are currently behind every physical control at any particular time (well... I do not really know at the moment exact relation, my questions are about that)
* to "trick" Y01, AZ Controller should imitate the whole set (1000+) of possible parameters. But at any particular time, only currently controllable parameters are relevant. As long as we know which subset is required, only these parameters should be updated. While strait forward for control from Y01 (Y01 always specify EXACT parameter it is changing) that is tricky for the feedback. If "AZ Controller" think faders are controlling Volume, it will send the feedback throw "Y01 channel volume" parameters. And in case your Y01 faders are in fact in AUX1 mode, they will not move.
* using this approach, it is possible to map an arbitrary Sonar parameter to physical control DIRECTLY, so independent in which mode Y01 is, it is possible to use Fader 1 to control let say Track 101 Pan. For incoming messages, any incarnation which can come from physical Fader 1 is just routed to the same AZ Controller Logical Control. For the feedback, the very same control sends required value throw whatever Y01 parameter Fader 1 currently controls (Volume, AUX1, FX1, etc.). Since we know the current, there is no need to update ALL parameters which can be controlled by the Fader 1 (which will probably saturate MIDI connection quickly)
* COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT from the previous sentences, incoming signal from mode/page/screen switches can be arbitrary used to define which Sonar parameter Fader 1 should control (your ScreenPage list). Making the definition simple and flexible
So the first, most boring and most difficult part is establish a preset which can BYPASS Y01 mode, with one logical control per physical control. The rest is a matter of 1-2 hours ;)
I hope that short explanation is more clear then my previous attempts.
12:30 am here. Will test tomorrow night.
I will have to read your questions carefully to answer truthfully.. Not something quick for a tired head..
Eq is on rotary Encoders. Faders do not send eq ever!
I managed to sneak out to the studio for half an hour this morning.
The last version has good feedback. I did a quick automation pass using a ruler to get adjacent channel commands generated and switched fader mode to Aux 1 - repeated with ruler and then replayed the automation. All good. Input Faders respond to track and Send 1 volume feedback as expected - I am going to assume that other sends are also ok for now too - will test more thoroughly tonight.
Quote
Ya... but with some immediate bugs :o
which were easily fixed.
Quote
Do you mean Faders are in general used in EQ and Dynamics mode? That is not yet accounted in my current preset. I have thought EQ/Comp are controlled by encoders only... Which message Channel 1 fader sends in EQ mode(s)?
...
Good to know (and I have to remember that). But that is in contradiction to my previous guess. If faders are revert to volume when you press EQ, how they control EQ then?
As I pre-empted last night.. All Pan and EQ messages come from rotary encoders, never the faders.
There are Option settings to automatically show PAN and EQ screens when Pan or EQ controls are touched (See Preferences Picture - pg 203 of the user manual).
I have turned these options off - so that we can use PAN encoder x1(x14) and EQ encoders x13(x14) and 1x EQ Switch(x14) with 9 screens [Utility, MIDI, Setup, View, Dynamics, EQ/Att, Display, Pan/Routing, Home]. I will see if changing those options sends MIDI out. If it does, we should add them to _fInitDAWMode.
When the Options are set as above: Pan and EQ messages (for selected track), and 14 track volume settings are all accessible at the same time - in 9 screens with multiple pages each: first 8 at the top, plus HOME.
I will have to verify tonight.. but I think that in Aux/FX Fader Modes, Pan and EQ should still be available for Selected track which is why I created _PanMode Software State, to make it possible to access HPF, LPF, Pan Aux/FX sends in Sonar.. the 01V only has mono sends internally. We may want to create _EQMode.. later.. to use for ACT rotaries (??)
Quote
Sorry, I remember I have tried to understand the documentation. But that aspects are not clearly explained there, I mean which controls switch to which mode after when buttons pressed.
For us that is very important.
Whenever we change fader mode or screen/page, A SELECT message is sent immediately.
As the front panel indicates (See Fader Modes Picture - page 14 of the User Manual) - only
Fader mode changes when touching the buttons with grey shading - Pan and EQ stay as Pan and EQ. In all other screens, faders are the same as home.
Option I/O is Ch 17-24, which appears on faders 1-8
Remote is fully user configurable - either internal parameters like bus 1-4, Reverb Decay Time, GM CC 1-127 - depending on which Page and internal Bank are chosen (pgs 194, 236, 238 of the user manual)
Quote
* Y01 "think" it controls another Y01 when we use it with Sonar, so it assumes that "remove" mixer has all >>1000 parameters directly accessible to be controlled
* in practice, Y01 can control only limited set of parameters at any particular time, that number is equal to the number of real physical controls on it
yes, About 1400 internal parameters.. If it was an analog mixer it would be quite large... but with 2 hands I can only change parameters a few at a time.
Quote
Since we know the current, there is no need to update ALL parameters which can be controlled by the Fader 1 (which will probably saturate MIDI connection quickly)
OK, you are looking to avoid crashing into the data throughput of MIDI spec (3125 bytes per second).
Quote
* COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT from the previous sentences, incoming signal from mode/page/screen switches can be arbitrary used to define which Sonar parameter Fader 1 should control (your ScreenPage list). Making the definition simple and flexible
So the first, most boring and most difficult part is establish a preset which can BYPASS Y01 mode, with one logical control per physical control. The rest is a matter of 1-2 hours ;)
I hope that short explanation is more clear then my previous attempts.
Understood.
I read another post here about 01V96VCM in HUI mode. All sorted in less than a week..
Probably I have already asked before, but I have not found in the thread... Do buttons near encoders send something?
I mean if you change from "HIGHT" to "HI-MID", is AZ Controller informed?
Quote from: azslow3 on April 27, 2017, 01:25:42 PM
Do buttons near encoders send something?
I just checked with MIDOX.. No.. They are silent. Their purpose is to change the current EQ band for editing (Low, Low-Mid, High-Mid, High). When the
EQ Screen Page 1 is displayed, all EQ parameters can bee seen at once. They have a visual feedback on the LCD screen only - no motors to fights with fingers, no Encoder ring LEDs..
Of the 3 parameters per PEQ Band, only 2 have Physical hardware controls.. Freq & Gain. The virtual Attenuator, Q control and EQ ON/Off button
are only accessible via the LCD, cursor buttons and the data entry wheel. My gut feeling says to treat them like 12 motorized faders per channel - only the currently selected parameters on the surface can send data (whether EQ screen is shown or NOT!!), but all can receive.. If the EQ screen is not shown, don't send feedback because at that stage nobody can see it anyway.
I don't do any EQ automation recording. It is more about setting up the static mix quickly and getting away from the mouse and keyboard. But they might be useful for ACT mode, which may record automation moves..
Quote from: Linzmeister on April 27, 2017, 05:47:40 AM
I will have to verify tonight.. but I think that in Aux/FX Fader Modes, Pan and EQ should still be available for Selected track
Yes, indeed, the PAN and EQ knobs always send the same parameter for selected channel regardless of Fader Mode/Screen..
Ok, I have thought so... I have already started to define 12 encoders the same way as faders. I have thought "Pan" encoder is also Q, at least for LoMid and HiMid bands. For Lo and Hi it is in position of the "band type" (not sure which values it set/received). Is that not so?
In general, what will be displayed will be incorrect since 01y internally trynslate values to Frequency, Gain, etc. Also selecting other parameters with cursor make no big sense.
My current plan is adopt EQ mode and Pan (may be extending later). Pan really as selected strip pan, EQ mode we can make ACT (which in turn can control EQs and other plug-ins). It make sense enable faders and "On"/"Solo" to contribute there. But lets check encoders first. While without motor, they still will need feedback "position" to work correctly.
The Q control on screen is below the gain & freq controls.. If you were suggesting to use the pan control for Q, it would not be intuitive to have the top physical control controlling the bottom screen control.. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant..?
Navigating the Q control on screen is quite intuitive. With the cursor on the Q parameter of any EQ band, pressing any band button, moves the cursor to the Q control of the selected band.. Quite efficient really.
The EQ controls do not send 0-127 values. The values received will need to be scaled proportionally. Gain, Freq and Q all send MIDI values of 0-32. Attenuator sends 0-96.
Natively the Q control in the lo and hi bands varies throughout the normal range of 0.1 to 10, but has an added state of hpf or lpf respectively. When being used for EQ, I was thinking of limiting their ranges to exclude the hpf and lpf midi values and scaling the remaining values - using the pan control and Eq screen and pages to set hpf and lpf frequencies as the PC eq has 4 full bands plus separate hpf and lpf freq. Maybe Attenuator control can be hpf and lpf slope dB/Oct - 2 pages hpf slope, lpf slope.
The pan control only sends 0-32 and will need to be scaled too.
Quote from: Linzmeister on April 27, 2017, 02:25:47 PMIf the EQ screen is not shown, don't send feedback because at that stage nobody can see it anyway.
You are probably way ahead of me already and realize I was thinking poorly. Selected channel does need Encoder's feedback when not on screen, so that when a control is moved, it doesn't do a huge jump in value..
Ok, massive cleanup it still in progress (as you can see by the file size and the number of controls), nothing is really finished.
But please check Pan. For first 12 channels. It should work, with 32 max value and with feedback (the feedback you should be able to see on the display and the value should not "jump" when you switch channels). That is an important prove of concept for EQ encoders.
Also for Pan, you have defined Pan 1 .. Pan 24 controls. But SysEx they send are not continuous with numbers. Can you check what "13/14" and "15/16" send?
Also check ATT. Not sure it will work, but at least it has some definition.
Quote from: azslow3 on April 28, 2017, 06:32:04 PM
But please check Pan. For first 12 channels. It should work, with 32 max value and with feedback (the feedback you should be able to see on the display and the value should not "jump" when you switch channels). That is an important prove of concept for EQ encoders.
Setting an initial Pan value works, Feedback on Selected Channel works. If I select a channel and move the pan, then quickly select a different channel, everything appears normal.
There is an unusual behavior. Having set the Pan positions on a number of channels, changing Selected Channels with 01V - without changing any pan values, sets 01V pans to wrong values - Sonar values stay as they were set - not recording automation yet... The previously selected channel gets feedback value of the newly selected channel (feedback sent too soon??).. Is it possible to delay the Pan feedback when changing selected channels?
Quote from: azslow3 on April 28, 2017, 06:32:04 PM
Also for Pan, you have defined Pan 1 .. Pan 24 controls. But SysEx they send are not continuous with numbers. Can you check what "13/14" and "15/16" send?
Chs 13/14 & 15/16 being stereo channels have 2 pan controls each..
MIDIOX Captures:
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 74 00 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 74 01 F7 Channel 13 Pan
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 74 02 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 75 00 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 75 01 F7 Channel 14 Pan
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 75 02 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 76 00 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 76 01 F7 Channel 15 Pan
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 76 02 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 77 00 F7
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 77 01 F7 Channel 16 Pan
SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 77 02 F7
I think the easiest way to deal with that as Sonar only has 1 Pan control for all channels is when receiving input from either 13 or 14 to send feedback to 13 & 14 with the same position value so Left and Right track together... and likewise for 15&16.
Quote from: azslow3 on April 28, 2017, 06:32:04 PM
Also check ATT. Not sure it will work, but at least it has some definition.
I can't see what ATT is controlling. I set all the ATT controls to 0, and going back and confirming their values, they were all at old values again. Last MIDI Event was showing the values, but it does not seem to be associated with any hardware context. Were you sending ATT feedback from another control??
I did notice that most EQ controls also controlled Sonar pan. Only Low Gain did nothing..
Quote from: Linzmeister on April 28, 2017, 12:46:55 AM
Maybe Attenuator control can be hpf and lpf slope dB/Oct - 2 pages hpf slope, lpf slope.
That would be another brain fart :o .. There is no ATT control on EQ page 2 to allow sending any value.. may still work as HPF Slope though which I would use more than LPF
A couple of additional observations:
Quote from: Linzmeister on April 29, 2017, 09:55:08 AM
The previously selected channel gets feedback value of the newly selected channel (feedback sent too soon??).. Is it possible to delay the Pan feedback when changing selected channels?
1) Manually setting PanMoved = YES on Overview Tab, not touching Pan controls and SELecting different channels does not upset 01V Pan settings..
2) I wouldn't mind betting that they could be transmitted together like the fader position and On/Solo values in groups of 8 - given that the SYSEX values:
43 10 3e 4
30 [control type 0-7+]:
0 = chan 1-16
1 = Chan 17-24
2 = EQ Freq
3 = EQ Gain and (Low, LowMid, half of HighMid) Q
4 = rest of HighMid Q and all of Hi Q
5 = Dynamics controls
6 = Pan
7 = ATT
[control value]..... that and Yamaha being highly organised individuals doing things in structured ways.
I do not think I will provide new version till tuesday, but I will check what is wrong. But some comment:
Each channel has separate Pan setting, but I in send "Sonar current channel Pan" to whatever 01V channel is "Selected" (from AZ Controller perspective). At some point they can be not synced (current track in sonar is still 1 while it sends to 01y channel 2). As I wrote, display on 01v for ANY channel except current can be wrong. Unlike faders, I do not send Pan for all 01v channels. I try to be in sync with with only once channel which is controlled by (the only available) encoder.
So, do I understand your right with the following observation:
Sonar track 1 - all the way left, Sonar track 2 - all the way right, track 1 is currently selected.
1) you press "Sel 02" on 01v (which should select track 2 in Sonar)
2) for "Ch 2" on 01v you see wrong Pan value (left) and so turning the encoder instantly "jump" Pan value for Sonar track 2 from right to the left.
Is that so? That I will find and fix the bug.
Lets stay realistic... 01v has 3 encoders. In addition they are low resolution. I do not mind make Pan working correctly and even partially make other 2 working for something. But keeping all internal parameters in sync so they are displayed correctly for all Sonar strips is an overkill.
If you ask me, it can be much simpler to define and use (!) 01v with Sonar if we use faders only. F.e. to control pan, press "Pan/Routing" and control pan by faders. Press "Home" to return to volume. Press "EQ" to control all ProChannel EQ parameters of current Sonar strip by faders and buttons. etc.
Our original problem was the luck of buttons to switch modes. And you have found how to use 15 buttons for that (Option IO and Remote are special, can discard that as well). So we already have 15 easy to switch modes for 14+1 fader and 14*2 channel buttons. That should be sufficient to control everything without tricky switching and indication on display which can work more or less adequate for Pan only...
Quote from: azslow3 on April 30, 2017, 10:43:32 AM
So, do I understand your right with the following observation:
Sonar track 1 - all the way left, Sonar track 2 - all the way right, track 1 is currently selected.
1) you press "Sel 02" on 01v (which should select track 2 in Sonar)
2) for "Ch 2" on 01v you see wrong Pan value (left) and so turning the encoder instantly "jump" Pan value for Sonar track 2 from right to the left.
Is that so? That I will find and fix the bug.
Yup, got it in one!!
Quote from: azslow3 on April 30, 2017, 10:43:32 AM
Lets stay realistic... 01v has 3 encoders. In addition they are low resolution. I do not mind make Pan working correctly and even partially make other 2 working for something. But keeping all internal parameters in sync so they are displayed correctly for all Sonar strips is an overkill.
If you ask me, it can be much simpler to define and use (!) 01v with Sonar if we use faders only. F.e. to control pan, press "Pan/Routing" and control pan by faders. Press "Home" to return to volume. Press "EQ" to control all ProChannel EQ parameters of current Sonar strip by faders and buttons. etc.
Ahhh huh... Now I understand your perspective much more clearly.. This takes the Yamaha "sends on fader" concept and gives it steroids. It has 3 physical encoders per channel.. And a gajillian virtual encoders on screen.
I am a live sound guy doing some studio mixing at home. When mixing live, things move very fast. Hands, eyes and ears are all in sync, reducing the
thinking time. My reason for wanting all the controls to be replicated was to get as close as I could to the speed of mixing live in the studio. Using the on screen EQ and dynamics keeps the human senses in sync.. But I take your point.
I have been working on an overlay template in Excel to re-label the 01V controls, and building a Sonar template to have sends already to use and busses already labelled, with a small number of plugins pre-patched. I'll take another look at the overlay and consider some possibilities for including EQ and Dynamics on faders.
Quote from: azslow3 on April 30, 2017, 10:43:32 AM
Our original problem was the luck of buttons to switch modes. And you have found how to use 15 buttons for that (Option IO and Remote are special, can discard that as well). So we already have 15 easy to switch modes for 14+1 fader and 14*2 channel buttons. That should be sufficient to control everything without tricky switching and indication on display which can work more or less adequate for Pan only...
Sure, ditch the Option I/O and remote screens. Feel free to delete Ch 17-24 and all the busses 1-14.
I appreciate your skill, experience, and perspective.
Quote from: Linzmeister on April 30, 2017, 04:55:13 PM
Quote from: azslow3 on April 30, 2017, 10:43:32 AM
So, do I understand your right with the following observation:
Sonar track 1 - all the way left, Sonar track 2 - all the way right, track 1 is currently selected.
1) you press "Sel 02" on 01v (which should select track 2 in Sonar)
2) for "Ch 2" on 01v you see wrong Pan value (left) and so turning the encoder instantly "jump" Pan value for Sonar track 2 from right to the left.
Is that so? That I will find and fix the bug.
Yup, got it in one!!
Will look for that... but you can help me there. Does that glitch happens with any channels or there is a fixed "shift"?
I mean if you switch from Ch 5 to Ch 2, does Ch1 Pan is initialized with Ch 5 value or with Ch 1 ?
I guess Ch5, but for you that is way more easy to check.
For the rest.
* Option I/O will be not so hard to incorporate, these are just "ch 17/24" (really 15-22 since 2 channels in-between are "stereo"). I have made ACT mapping out of them in some version which we have discarded now, was not a big deal.
* Remote function differently then the reset, it is for different purpose on hardware side.
* With Pan indication on display can be right, also transferring all 16 channels is possible with block transfer (as tricky as faders, while just for one encoder... but if that can help you that is acceptable).
* But other 2 encoders and all that "virtual" controllers... we can not make 01v display show correct Sonar value. Even with the same type of parameter, f.e. EQ Gain, the scala (in dB) inside 01v is most probably different from Sonar. I mean value "16" has different meaning in Hz for 01v and Sonar. For other parameters that is the same or worse (quantity will be completely different). And the effort to make them synced for all channels is enorm (4 time more then for faders/pans, because of 4 bands!). So even when we make encoders themselves work (and that is the plan, in big part implemented), you still have to look at monitor to see real value. So I do not see the reason, sorry.
While necromancing long time obsolete device is a lot of fun (uncovers interesting concepts and technology, in fact the same direction can be taken for modern devices with remote control but with limited Control Surface functionality, like all A&H mixers), I propose we draw some borders based on effort/usability ratio.
I have found the bug with Pan, but the solution can break something else...
so please check that Pan is now working correctly and Sel/Fader/On are still working.
Hi Alexy,
Pan now updates to correct value.
You are right, 01V On Buttons respond to feedback from Sonar, but can not control Sonar from 01V - which also affects the ability to switch modes (transport, arming, automation R/W, edit). I had to use the Mode control in Overview to test each mode. Can not use On buttons to control Transport, mute, Automn Read, edit functions
Sel buttons on tracks and busss OK: Select Sonar track/buss
RTN1 & 2 not banking more than 1 bank left or right. RTN SEL lights stay lit after pressing.
Pressing Master Sel light permitted. Does not jump back to current WAI track/bus +_Ch
Solo buttons still working fine.
Faders are fine also.
I did look at my overlay template.. with 14 faders, it nicely accommodates hpf, lpf, and 12 faders for EQ, Freq, Q and gain, or first 6 faders for Compressor - last 5 faders for most important Gate controls.
The latest fix of Pan could not produce such effects... so that had to be broken already before (can be in my v2, can be even earlier).
That is fine for now, except "On" buttons. It my local test they work fine. Are you sure you are in Home fader mode?
If yes, what you see as "Last MIDI event" when you press "Ch 1 On"?
Ch 1 On Last MIDI event is <43>10 3e 4 60 1 [30 0 ] or [30 8 ]
On Btns 1-8 <43>10 3e 4 60 1 30
Have you turned the 30 into a variable parameter?
My cleanup has uncovered a bug in SysEx processing. Thank you for spotting.
Please install b361 from http://www.azslow.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=28
The preset to test is still the same.
beautiful!!
On buttons are working again in all modes.
Cleanup is almost complete.
I have re-organized "Select" buttons reaction. So please check selection is still working. There is no other useful changes so far.
But it is important to check "SEL" buttons are working as expected (and I understand things correctly).
You have defined SEL Bus, SEL FX, SEL AUX which was doing nothing. I am not understand when they was called and how.
My proposal (and how it should work now):
1) SEL 1-15/16 select WAI strips, synced with Sonar current strip.
2) Master is "Selected" (on 01v) when current Sonar strip is outside WAI
3) all other SEL buttons do not select corresponding channel. AZCtl sends back selecting last selected channel with (1)+(2) rules. SEL Return1 and Return 2 are already used for WAI moving. SEL Master and Ch 17-24 can be used for some commands. SEL Bus,FX,AUX will do nothing.
That effectively avoid Returns, Master, CH 17-24 , BUS, FX, AUX (all that on 01v, NOT for Sonar!) selection and makes configuring Pan and possibly EQ F/G, ATT, Comp (if/when we implement them) simpler.
------------
I also propose we start to define final road map. I will mark hard changeable and easy changeable things:
1. Ch 1-15/16 control Sonar strips + transport in some modes, as it is now. What is controlled exactly is easy to change. Currently the whole set of channels is bound to one Strip type (Track/Bus). I can change that to some variations, so it is possible in some modes get 7+7, 12+2, etc. But if you think that is useful, it is better to do right at the beginning. So let me know (that Strip type is used in almost all other controls, so if I make it Strip(_CH) and so channel dependent, many places have to be changed. Still better to do this before we add extra Sonar related logic)
2. As before, I propose to use Ch17-24 for Plug-in Dynamic Mapping (I remember I have done that already once). That channels are easy to access ("Option I/O" button) and can provide reasonable good control over any plug-ins, including EQ/Comp/other ProChannel modules/FX/Synth. Continuous parameters will be controlled by faders, switch by "ON" buttons. "SEL" buttons can be used to select plug-in (f.e. "First ProChannel", "First FX", "First Synth", "Previous" "Next", easy to define/change so exact layout is not important by now).
3. 01V "Pages" and "Fader modes" will be used to select strip related operations. In Sonar we have Track/Buses (switched by Returns buttons now) and Sends. So in fact we do not even need a lot. Exact behavior of Channel controls in different modes is easy to (re)define.
4. Since all selectable on 01v channels (1-16 + Master) have 4 band EQs, we can try to adopt 2 encoders to do something useful. The worry is low resolution of corresponding 01v parameter (as you have mentioned) and incorrect values on display. That will be a bit boring to define, but almost everything is already prepared. So we can try.
5. We can try to define Compressor, I also leaved corresponding input processing (redefined yours), so also partially prepared. But all parameters there have not dedicated hardware controls, probably also have limited ranges and will have incorrect indication on display.
So, 4 and 5 are still questionable for me. But we will try to define them to see how that works in practice. I propose to do this after 1-3 since I still hope once you understand how 2 is working, you will no longer need 4 and 5 ;)
I love what you are doing Alexy.
I am beginning to see the underlying pattern to your new thinking - aggregating midi messages into a single hardware control.
I also now understand that _POS is for the grouping of adjacent controls - different positions within the midi messages and position, is the fader, encoder value. I was getting confused between those functions.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 05, 2017, 06:12:25 PM
Cleanup is almost complete.
I have re-organized "Select" buttons reaction. So please check selection is still working. There is no other useful changes so far.
But it is important to check "SEL" buttons are working as expected (and I understand things correctly).
You have defined SEL Bus, SEL FX, SEL AUX which was doing nothing. I am not understand when they was called and how.
Initially, the SELect was not correct, I just had to read the overview Tab to see which values were being changed and with 2 little edits it was all good.
By moving the call to _fSCreenPage below compare value=30, and applying an offset to:
- 7bit value from sysex position 1 in SYSEX <..> Sel Input() - changing from 0 to 1 it all worked..
Position 0 always = 1 - indicating this is a sel message,
position 1 is the SELected channel,
position 2 is the Screen#/HWFaderMode
position 3 is the Page #
The <Sysex SEL Aux/FX/Bus1-14> would have been some rubbish thinking of mine before I understood where you were heading. They would have overlapped the functionality of OutOfWAI and SEL ST/MASTER .. Deleting them was fine. Changing from tracks to busses and using SELect(1-14) gives me better control than I would have been able to achieve with my rubbish way.
Regarding the cleanup, I have used Marko's export utility and loaded the text file into Excel. Deleted most of the content leaving only the SYSEX <43>xx xx xx messages. I then sorted the messages and added leading zeros on some single digit values to get the sort order cleaner. I think you have probably figured most of it out already, but I can attach later if you wish.
With this last version, Ii noticed that some of the ON and SOLO feedback is getting out of sync. - Primarily around changing button modes. Mute a track and switch to track arming, and the channel that was muted pressing the Arm button would be out of sync with Sonar. Ii could get them back in sync by Turning LOCAL ON.. changing the Sonar switch State and turning LOCAL back OFF.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 05, 2017, 06:12:25 PM
SEL Master and Ch 17-24 can be used for some commands. SEL Bus,FX,AUX will do nothing.
From memory, you did not permit selecting the Master, as that was indicating OutOfWAI
Quote from: azslow3 on May 05, 2017, 06:12:25 PM
1.
I can change that to some variations, so it is possible in some modes get 7+7, 12+2, etc. But if you think that is useful, it is better to do right at the beginning.
<snip>
Still better to do this before we add extra Sonar related logic)
I am
deliriously happy with 14 tracks and 1 bus. With the _fScreenPage function I have all the control I could ask for because I can also switch to 15 Busses with 01V Home screen Page 2. I just need to add an offset somewhere so that Ch 1 and the Master fader don't mirror each other. ie Master is WAIbus 1, Channel fader 1 is WAI Buss 2 --> Ch Fader 14 is Buss 15.. easy enough to get that working properly..
Quote from: azslow3 on May 05, 2017, 06:12:25 PM
2. As before, I propose to use Ch17-24 for Plug-in Dynamic Mapping (I remember I have done that already once).
<snip>
So, 4 and 5 are still questionable for me. But we will try to define them to see how that works in practice. I propose to do this after 1-3 since I still hope once you understand how 2 is working, you will no longer need 4 and 5 ;)
Yup, that's all good.
With SEL that was bad assignment... constant "1" had to be inside assigned message. Should be corrected now ;)
With buttons it is unclear... I have not reworked buttons yet. For that I need the following info:
In different fader modes, which messages are sent by buttons? I mean all of them. Can be that some buttons are the same (f.e. SEL), but what is with ON and SOLO?
Also I have not configured the Master fader yet. It controls the first WAI bus, but without feedback and only in Home fader mode...
So, which messages it sends in other fader modes?
Probably required SysExes are is some of your posts... but I think it will not take much time for you to check ;)
I have shifted controlled buses, so Ch1 -> WAI + 1, etc.
I have defined Ch17-24 faders and "Dynamic map faders". You can try to check that. Select (by mouse) some plug-in. In AZ Controller switch to the "ACT" tab to see which faders are defined. Probably no... so "ACT Learn" ("A L" button on top of any plug-in), press it, move some parameters, move corresponding faders on 01Y, press it again, confirm the assignment. "ACT" tab should show new assignment (if my preset is working...). Note that the assignment probably will drop when you restart Sonar. Do not worry, that is the subject for removing some files and use "AZ ACT Fix" utility. I will explain later.
Hi Alexy,
Quote from: azslow3 on May 08, 2017, 05:38:00 PM
With SEL that was bad assignment... constant "1" had to be inside assigned message. Should be corrected now ;)
Yup, all good
Quote from: azslow3 on May 08, 2017, 05:38:00 PM
With buttons it is unclear... I have not reworked buttons yet. For that I need the following info:
In different fader modes, which messages are sent by buttons? I mean all of them. Can be that some buttons are the same (f.e. SEL), but what is with ON and SOLO?
I thought something went horribly wrong. Going back to previous versions and testing functions that I know worked in them, I was getting no feedback at all. Then I started to notice that NO MIDI was arriving at 01V... and the MIDI lights at the bottom of SONAR were only showing MIDI IN and no MIDI OUT.
I closed Sonar and restarted, and got all the feedback returning. Sonar glitch??
The ON and SOLO buttons are now syncing correctly - again because of above... And it wasn't a HW mode, it was the Transport, Arming, Automation, Edit mode. BUT, I checked the MIDI messages anyway.. just to be sure..
On ALL Screens and Fader modes
except Option I/O / ACT, ON and SOLO always send the same messages..
In Option I/O screen it sends:
*** On Btns 17-24 *** () and
*** Solo Btns 17-24 *** ()
The SELect buttons send different values 17-24 instead of 0-13 ( 0xd )
Channels 9-15/16 are silent when pressed/moved. no output.
RTN 1 & 2, and the Master fader still send the same HOME screen messages.. so can still bank left/right, play, prev marker and change modes
Quote from: azslow3 on May 08, 2017, 05:38:00 PM
Also I have not configured the Master fader yet. It controls the first WAI bus, but without feedback and only in Home fader mode...
So, which messages it sends in other fader modes?
Probably required SysExes are is some of your posts... but I think it will not take much time for you to check ;)
Master Fader sends the following messages in each HWFaderMode
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 0 1c ) Aux 1 :
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 0 1d ) Aux 2 :
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 0 1e ) Aux 3 :
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 0 1f ) Aux 4 :
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 0 25 ) Fx 1 :
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 0 26 ) Fx 2 :
All these messages are correctly calling Faders Input 00(). With the Paging I had setup before and WAI 14+1, I was able to move WAI to correct bus (matching sends on fader) and control busses 2-15 (1 at a time) with Master Fader. Currently broken, but not stressed.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 08, 2017, 05:38:00 PM
I have shifted controlled buses, so Ch1 -> WAI + 1, etc.
yup, that works beautifully, when WAI is focussed on 15 Busses. No more master mirroring fader 1.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 08, 2017, 05:38:00 PM
I have defined Ch17-24 faders and "Dynamic map faders". You can try to check that. Select (by mouse) some plug-in. In AZ Controller switch to the "ACT" tab to see which faders are defined. Probably no... so "ACT Learn" ("A L" button on top of any plug-in), press it, move some parameters, move corresponding faders on 01Y, press it again, confirm the assignment. "ACT" tab should show new assignment (if my preset is working...). Note that the assignment probably will drop when you restart Sonar. Do not worry, that is the subject for removing some files and use "AZ ACT Fix" utility. I will explain later.
:-*:-*:-* HALLELUJAH !!! :-*:-*:-* For all my efforts over the years to try and get ACT working with the 01V since Sonar 6 or 7 came out... This is the first time I have had even the slightest success!!! THANK YOU!!! :-* I was able to map the first 6 faders to control the Sonitus compressor.
and of course it worked flawlessly - with feedback !!! just like all the you tube videos I have seen of Mr Anderton explaining how easy it was... Alexey, You're a champion - a god among men!!!
Quote
Quote from: azslow3 on May 08, 2017, 05:38:00 PM
With buttons it is unclear... I have not reworked buttons yet. For that I need the following info:
In different fader modes, which messages are sent by buttons? I mean all of them. Can be that some buttons are the same (f.e. SEL), but what is with ON and SOLO?
I thought something went horribly wrong. Going back to previous versions and testing functions that I know worked in them, I was getting no feedback at all. Then I started to notice that NO MIDI was arriving at 01V... and the MIDI lights at the bottom of SONAR were only showing MIDI IN and no MIDI OUT.
I closed Sonar and restarted, and got all the feedback returning. Sonar glitch??
Let hope that was Sonar glitch... but let me know id that repeats.
Quote
The ON and SOLO buttons are now syncing correctly - again because of above... And it wasn't a HW mode, it was the Transport, Arming, Automation, Edit mode. BUT, I checked the MIDI messages anyway.. just to be sure..
I have started to rework Select and On. Many things are touched, everything can be broken:
* I have removed your "Does that course problems?" in ON Input 9-RT. So something can go wrong again with selection when you press ON. The preset assume that 01v sends "Select" when you press "On". It will a kind of "ignore" it (immediately selecting "correct" channel). If that re-selection interfere with something 01V for some channels/returns, that can produce problems. If 01v is configured to NOT send SEL on ON (is there such option? reading the documentation, I remember some options for "auto" choosing for different things...), then the preset will skip next real SEL... We have to clarify that.
* I completely reworked ON feedback, including MODE feedback. Please check all modes and corresponding feedback.
* In AUX/FX Fader modes (so current Sends logical mode), ON buttons should control (and indicate) corresponding Send Enable.
* 17-24 "ON"s should be mappable and Dynamic Buttons (some people report difficulties in mapping buttons in plug-ins, at least the first time).
Quote
Quote from: azslow3 on May 08, 2017, 05:38:00 PM
Also I have not configured the Master fader yet. It controls the first WAI bus, but without feedback and only in Home fader mode...
So, which messages it sends in other fader modes?
Probably required SysExes are is some of your posts... but I think it will not take much time for you to check ;)
Master Fader sends the following messages in each HWFaderMode
...
All these messages are correctly calling Faders Input 00(). With the Paging I had setup before and WAI 14+1, I was able to move WAI to correct bus (matching sends on fader) and control busses 2-15 (1 at a time) with Master Fader. Currently broken, but not stressed.
It should "back to life", with feedback, in all Fader modes (controlling corresponding Bus Send).
Quote
:-*:-*:-* HALLELUJAH !!! :-*:-*:-*
For all my efforts over the years to try and get ACT working with the 01V since Sonar 6 or 7 came out... This is the first time I have had even the slightest success!!! THANK YOU!!! :-* I was able to map the first 6 faders to control the Sonitus compressor.
and of course it worked flawlessly - with feedback !!! just like all the you tube videos I have seen of Mr Anderton explaining how easy it was... Alexey, You're a champion - a god among men!!!
Thanks :)
But to really work with that reliably (so, how it had to be all the time but was and partially is broken in all Sonar versions):
1. in the Windows explorer, open
%APPDATA%\Cakewalk\ACT Data directory. And REMOVE everything you see there. It is garbage already in Sonar distribution, future bugged by Sonars before 2017.01. Even more, in the form you see files there, it CAN NOT work correctly with "ACT Learn", even theoretically. Funny? Yes it is 8)
2. Download AZ ACT Fix and read http://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,297.0.html .
3. To make things predictable, every time you have "ACT Learn"ed some new plug-in:
3.a. Exit Sonar !
3.b Start Sonar.... Does plug-in in question still mapped correctly ? Do ANY OTHER (previously mapped by you) plug-in still mapped correctly? Remember the answer...
3.c Exit Sonar !
3.d Run AZ ACT Fix. So, the mapping was correct? Then press "Save and exit" (that will create a backup). If you have broken mapping (yes, it CAN be completely broken, including ALL plug-ins mapped before! thank to MS XML library and several Sonar bugs...), select backup you know was ok and press "Save and exit" (you will have to re-do the latest mapping and hope it works this time).
If you want ACT Learn VST3, read in the linked page how to do this.
That was a kind of bad side of dynamic plug-in mapping.
The good side is that as long as you do not use new plug-ins (yes... not only do not map since once you open new plug-in, default mapping for it is created, and it can be broken out of the box...), the mapping will stay in tact. And with AZ ACT Fix and its backups (easy to create, just do not forget to CLOSE Sonar before doing that!), you can return working mapping within seconds.
When I map something, I "clear" default mapping first (using the utility). Recent Sonar versions have one related nasty bug fixed, but still starting from scratch is simpler.
Current test preset is not yet complete for Dynamic mapping (even in case ON buttons work). 8 faders is not sufficient for most plug-ins, there will be 4 banks of faders+buttons, directly selectable using 4 SOLO buttons (with indication which it the current). We can make more banks if required.
Also to indicate what is what (without using a bit inconvenient ACT Tab inside AZ Controller), I will add AZ Controller Display (you have already "discovered" it). It will show current plug-in name and currently controllable by faders and buttons parameters. Size, font and color are configurable, and we can use one SOLO button to open/close it. An alternative is iPad/iPhone/Android ... can be used as touch sensitive extra display for 01v ;) But we should solve all basic problems first.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 09, 2017, 07:38:19 PM
The preset assume that 01v sends "Select" when you press "On". It will a kind of "ignore" it (immediately selecting "correct" channel). If that re-selection interfere with something 01V for some channels/returns, that can produce problems. If 01v is configured to NOT send SEL on ON (is there such option? reading the documentation, I remember some options for "auto" choosing for different things...), then the preset will skip next real SEL... We have to clarify that.
Ah, no. 01V Sends select message with SOLO button not with ON button..
The only auto options are for Pan Screen and EQ screen - which I have turned off. They do not output MIDI when changed. That is up to me to manually set.
Quote
* I completely reworked ON feedback, including MODE feedback. Please check all modes and corresponding feedback.
Intermittent problem:
In Default Mode, on buttons are acting like momentary buttons. Sonar track MUTE state toggles each time 01V ON is pressed.
After pressing 01V, LED turns off for a moment then always reverts to LED on - regardless of Sonar mute state. After flipping around quite a bit I noticed it was working well. Seemed tied into AUX 1 page 2. Changing modes a couple of times with RTN ON buttons fixed the behavior..
Transport mode is fine.
Automation mode: 1-13/14 are fine.
15/16 is always on and doesn't appear to change anything visible. Pressing 15/16 the LED turns off and back on immediately.
Mon/Arm mode: 1-12 are fine. 13/14 & 15/16 are trying to be ACT R500
I deleted the Mode Arm ACT R500 and copied the Call (None) _fOn Set(_Ch) to after the monitor and the last 2 ON buttons worked.
I don't think we have defined any actions in Edit mode yet...
Quote
* In AUX/FX Fader modes (so current Sends logical mode), ON buttons should control (and indicate) corresponding Send Enable.
Intermittent..
Sometimes 01V LEDS constantly on. Pressing turns LED off briefly. No State change of Sonar Send..
After flipping MODES with RTN1 ON and it was working again.. I think going to AUX 1 Page 2 may have upset the ON buttons. when I come page to AUX1 Page 1, the fault re-occured. Change modes to ARM/Automation and back to default and it came good again.
Sonar Send ON Logic is inverted with respect to MUTE logic... Up to this point we were working with Sonar MUTE button, so we reversed the 01V LED feedback. Because 01V button is an ON button, and the Send is an ON button.. is it possible to revert to positive feedback logic for Sends ON but negative logic for MUTES??
Quote
* 17-24 "ON"s should be mappable and Dynamic Buttons (some people report difficulties in mapping buttons in plug-ins, at least the first time).
First atempt to assign CH 1 ON to Sonitus Compressor TYPE - resulted in Attack time changing. So I assigned Attack time to Fader 1, and re-assigned ON 1 to TYPE and ON 2&3 to LIMITER and TCR and they appeared to work better.. exit, restart, exit, ACT FIX save and exit.. etc.. restart, all seemed to be working still.
Quote
It should "back to life", with feedback, in all Fader modes (controlling corresponding Bus Send).
I think there is some of your testing logic still in place. When I look at overview tab, the HWFaderMode and _CH is changing depending on the Master fader level.
I don't know if it is important or not.. I appended extra Software States to:
_FaderMode ACT and
HWFaderMode Option I/O
and in _fScsreenPage I added a couple of lines to set these states when VAL=10
It seemed to be working without, but for readability of the overview window it made better sense to me as I think it was indicating AUX 4 when actually in Option I/O mode.
When many places are changed and there is no way to check the result, the probability everything is broken is hi ;)
Quote from: Linzmeister on May 10, 2017, 02:47:43 PM
Quote from: azslow3 on May 09, 2017, 07:38:19 PM
The preset assume that 01v sends "Select" when you press "On". It will a kind of "ignore" it (immediately selecting "correct" channel). If that re-selection interfere with something 01V for some channels/returns, that can produce problems. If 01v is configured to NOT send SEL on ON (is there such option? reading the documentation, I remember some options for "auto" choosing for different things...), then the preset will skip next real SEL... We have to clarify that.
Ah, no. 01V Sends select message with SOLO button not with ON button..
The only auto options are for Pan Screen and EQ screen - which I have turned off. They do not output MIDI when changed. That is up to me to manually set.
Ok, removed. It still was there for 1-8 channels ON in your last version (comment was for 9-16 only).
Quote
Quote
* I completely reworked ON feedback, including MODE feedback. Please check all modes and corresponding feedback.
Intermittent problem:
In Default Mode, on buttons are acting like momentary buttons. Sonar track MUTE state toggles each time 01V ON is pressed.
After pressing 01V, LED turns off for a moment then always reverts to LED on - regardless of Sonar mute state. After flipping around quite a bit I noticed it was working well. Seemed tied into AUX 1 page 2. Changing modes a couple of times with RTN ON buttons fixed the behavior..
There is one bug in my part, one problematic definition (old time there) and rather fancy lines in you _ScreePage which I have overseen. Should be better now.
Quote
Automation mode: 1-13/14 are fine.
15/16 is always on and doesn't appear to change anything visible. Pressing 15/16 the LED turns off and back on immediately.
Mon/Arm mode: 11-12 are fine. 13/14 & 15/16 are trying to be ACT R500
I deleted the Mode Arm ACT R500 and copied the Call (None) _fOn Set(_Ch) to after the monitor and the last 2 ON buttons worked.
Yes, 13/14 and 15/16 had some "flash back", from times they was buses.
Quote
Quote
* In AUX/FX Fader modes (so current Sends logical mode), ON buttons should control (and indicate) corresponding Send Enable.
Intermittent..
Sometimes 01V LEDS constantly on. Pressing turns LED off briefly. No State change of Sonar Send..
May be fixed... at least the indication should be correct now.
Quote
Sonar Send ON Logic is inverted with respect to MUTE logic... Up to this point we were working with Sonar MUTE button, so we reversed the 01V LED feedback. Because 01V button is an ON button, and the Send is an ON button.. is it possible to revert to positive feedback logic for Sends ON but negative logic for MUTES??
Applied
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* 17-24 "ON"s should be mappable and Dynamic Buttons (some people report difficulties in mapping buttons in plug-ins, at least the first time).
First atempt to assign CH 1 ON to Sonitus Compressor TYPE - resulted in Attack time changing. So I assigned Attack time to Fader 1, and re-assigned ON 1 to TYPE and ON 2&3 to LIMITER and TCR and they appeared to work better.. exit, restart, exit, ACT FIX save and exit.. etc.. restart, all seemed to be working still.
If your sonar is later then recent Platinum, always start with "Clear" mapping to avoid fancy effects. So start Sonar, select the plug-in (not ACT Learn yet), close sonar (that created default mapping). Using ACT Fix clear it (for that plug-in, for AZ Controller surface). Start Sonar and map from scratch...
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It should "back to life", with feedback, in all Fader modes (controlling corresponding Bus Send).
I think there is some of your testing logic still in place. When I look at overview tab, the HWFaderMode and _CH is changing depending on the Master fader level.
Some fixes applied.
Quote
I don't know if it is important or not.. I appended extra Software States to:
_FaderMode ACT and
HWFaderMode Option I/O
and in _fScsreenPage I added a couple of lines to set these states when VAL=10
It seemed to be working without, but for readability of the overview window it made better sense to me as I think it was indicating AUX 4 when actually in Option I/O mode.
Well, its time to ask you what you try to achieve with your _ScreenPage. I mean what logical modes you want in which physical mode. We have to clean up that function...
From my understanding, Option I/O should select Ch 17-24 for current general Fader mode. I mean if AUX1 is selected, Options I/O switch first 8 faders as controlling Ch 17-24 AUX1. And so Option I/O is NOT HWFaderMode.
We dedicate Ch17-24 to Dynamic ACT, in all faders modes (logically), so it is not _FaderMode as well. Sorry.
I think that make sense, for example you modify some BUS FX and want mute some sends to it. So, you stay let say in AUX2 and switch Option I/O (a kind of On/Off, I do not know how it works on 01v, can you just press it second time or you have to press AUX2 explicitly?). I think that is more logical than ask switching to Home and then to Options I/O (which will be the case to control something different for AUX2 Options I/O)
So, please recheck again. If ok, I can start to work with Solo and we can start to discuss and implement _ScreenPage logic.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 10, 2017, 06:31:59 PM
Ok, removed. It still was there for 1-8 channels ON in your last version (comment was for 9-16 only).
There was some ignoreSelect() in Master ON and RTNs 1&2 ON.
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* I completely reworked ON feedback, including MODE feedback. Please check all modes and corresponding feedback.
Intermittent problem:
In Default Mode, on buttons are acting like momentary buttons. Sonar track MUTE state toggles each time 01V ON is pressed.
After pressing 01V, LED turns off for a moment then always reverts to LED on - regardless of Sonar mute state. After flipping around quite a bit I noticed it was working well. Seemed tied into AUX 1 page 2. Changing modes a couple of times with RTN ON buttons fixed the behavior..
There is one bug in my part, one problematic definition (old time there) and rather fancy lines in you _ScreePage which I have overseen. Should be better now.
Pressing any of ST Master, RTN1 or RTN 2 ON buttons started the MODE oscillating: Auto --> Default --> Auto --> Default (ON 1-14 and SOLO 1-14 were trying to keep up and were flashing too)
I could see the last midi message On Btn St/Master() value changing f-->7-->f--> 7 too.. the Master and RTNs can stay with positive logic permanently as they never affect Mute or Send ON.
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Automation mode: 1-13/14 are fine.
15/16 is always on and doesn't appear to change anything visible. Pressing 15/16 the LED turns off and back on immediately.
Mon/Arm mode: 1-12 are fine. 13/14 & 15/16 are trying to be ACT R500
I deleted the Mode Arm ACT R500 and copied the Call (None) _fOn Set(_Ch) to after the monitor and the last 2 ON buttons worked.
Yes, 13/14 and 15/16 had some "flash back", from times they was buses.
SOLO 13/14 & 15/16 suffer the same flash back symptoms - also Mirroring SOLO 1. Changing SOLO 1, 13/14 or 15/16 changes all 3 SOLO LEDs.. only affecting Sonar Solo WAI 1
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* In AUX/FX Fader modes (so current Sends logical mode), ON buttons should control (and indicate) corresponding Send Enable.
Intermittent..
Sometimes 01V LEDS constantly on. Pressing turns LED off briefly. No State change of Sonar Send..
May be fixed... at least the indication should be correct now.
Yup, all good. Controls Sonar and gives correct feedback..
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Sonar Send ON Logic is inverted with respect to MUTE logic... Up to this point we were working with Sonar MUTE button, so we reversed the 01V LED feedback. Because 01V button is an ON button, and the Send is an ON button.. is it possible to revert to positive feedback logic for Sends ON but negative logic for MUTES??
Applied
Nicely done. As Mentioned above, might this be part of the oscillating Mode??
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* 17-24 "ON"s should be mappable and Dynamic Buttons (some people report difficulties in mapping buttons in plug-ins, at least the first time).
First atempt to assign CH 1 ON to Sonitus Compressor TYPE - resulted in Attack time changing. So I assigned Attack time to Fader 1, and re-assigned ON 1 to TYPE and ON 2&3 to LIMITER and TCR and they appeared to work better.. exit, restart, exit, ACT FIX save and exit.. etc.. restart, all seemed to be working still.
If your sonar is later then recent Platinum, always start with "Clear" mapping to avoid fancy effects. So start Sonar, select the plug-in (not ACT Learn yet), close sonar (that created default mapping). Using ACT Fix clear it (for that plug-in, for AZ Controller surface). Start Sonar and map from scratch...
Despite having read your instruction 3 times, and the ACT FIX post twice, I still dived in too early with the learning. I skipped the first couple of step exactly like you said. Lesson learned.. :)
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It should "back to life", with feedback, in all Fader modes (controlling corresponding Bus Send).
I think there is some of your testing logic still in place. When I look at overview tab, the HWFaderMode and _CH is changing depending on the Master fader level.
Some fixes applied.
Getting better. After I let go of the Master Fader, I see Sonar Fader move a tiny bit. After MotorTimeout, 01V fader motor gives a little tick sound. Sometimes a large jump +/- 15db or more. Moving 01V fader causes Sonar Fader to jump to catch up to 01V.
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Well, its time to ask you what you try to achieve with your _ScreenPage. I mean what logical modes you want in which physical mode. We have to clean up that function...
As you can see I have a very clear picture of what FX1 - Aux 4 should do - including their 2 or 3 pages each.
I would like the SOLO buttons to map to the Pre/Post for each Send 1-14.
EQ maps faders to Pro Channel EQ
ON1-16 maps to PC EQ on
Dynamics maps faders to PC Compressor
COMP ON 1-16 to PC Compressor ON
Pan to Sonar Gain
Pan/Routing Page 2 to map Pan control to INPUT patch
Page 3 to map Pan control to OUTPUT/Bus patch
Remote is too much hard work.. not a problem. You are right - we have plenty of controls now..
Phase Delay Page 1 to map to Sonar phase
This leaves 4 buttons with many pages free for future thinking.
Crazy idea 1) You said 8 ACT faders was not enough. How many ACT controls would you think are necessary? Should the remaining screen buttons be assigned to ACT too? Obviously they have 14 faders, 28 buttons and 112 EQ rotaries per screen/Page combination.. I'll step away from the ledge now... :-X :-\ :o ;D
Crazy idea 2) Put the Mode buttons on top row, and provide more instant touch transports buttons on ST/Master and RTN1&2 ONs?
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From my understanding, Option I/O should select Ch 17-24 for current general Fader mode. I mean if AUX1 is selected, Options I/O switch first 8 faders as controlling Ch 17-24 AUX1.
No. Without the hardware to see what it does this bit certainly can be confusing. Touching OPTION I/O sets first 8 faders to CH 17-24 Channel fader regardless of previous fader mode Aux/FX etc..
17-24's Aux 1&2, FX 1&2 are LCD screen controls only. Page 58 of the User Manual has a photo of OPT I/I page 2.. The fader and EQ G and F are the only physical controls. Aux and FX must navigate with cursor and data wheel.
In LOCAL OFF mode, Pages 1,3 and 4 are disabled - they simply say RESERVED and page 5 while it has settings, they don't make any practical sense to use.. We could use the OPTION I/O pages as the ACT banks, freeing up some buttons, and giving 5*8 ACT faders
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I think that make sense, for example you modify some BUS FX and want mute some sends to it. So, you stay let say in AUX2 and switch Option I/O (a kind of On/Off, I do not know how it works on 01v, can you just press it second time or you have to press AUX2 explicitly?). I think that is more logical than ask switching to Home and then to Options I/O (which will be the case to control something different for AUX2 Options I/O)
Hmm... If using ACT to modify the BUS FX, and wanting to mute the sends to it, I would start in OPT I/O to control ACT, then just press AUX 2 to turn sends On and Off. No, there is no need to go Home first. Really quick operation.
Quote from: Linzmeister on May 11, 2017, 02:10:25 PM
Quote from: azslow3 on May 10, 2017, 06:31:59 PM
Ok, removed. It still was there for 1-8 channels ON in your last version (comment was for 9-16 only).
There was some ignoreSelect() in Master ON and RTNs 1&2 ON.
Removed.
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Pressing any of ST Master, RTN1 or RTN 2 ON buttons started the MODE oscillating: Auto --> Default --> Auto --> Default (ON 1-14 and SOLO 1-14 were trying to keep up and were flashing too)
I could see the last midi message On Btn St/Master() value changing f-->7-->f--> 7 too.. the Master and RTNs can stay with positive logic permanently as they never affect Mute or Send ON.[/quote
I forgot to remove looping back option for St ON. Fixed.
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SOLO 13/14 & 15/16 suffer the same flash back symptoms - also Mirroring SOLO 1. Changing SOLO 1, 13/14 or 15/16 changes all 3 SOLO LEDs.. only affecting Sonar Solo WAI 1
I do not remember asking you to check SOLO... I have clearly stated it is not done yet :o
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Despite having read your instruction 3 times, and the ACT FIX post twice, I still dived in too early with the learning. I skipped the first couple of step exactly like you said. Lesson learned.. :)
Even with all my efforts, initial ACT setup is still difficult.
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Getting better. After I let go of the Master Fader, I see Sonar Fader move a tiny bit. After MotorTimeout, 01V fader motor gives a little tick sound. Sometimes a large jump +/- 15db or more. Moving 01V fader causes Sonar Fader to jump to catch up to 01V.
I could not understand the the problem, so a bit more detailed please:
1) you move WAI BUS fader in Sonar (or WAI BUS Send in Sonar, when 01Y in AUX Fader modes). Does 01V moves correctly? If not, is that in all modes (Home, AUX-14, FX) or in some? If it moves, but not correctly, what is exact observation?
2) you move Master fader on 01v. What is happening in Sonar? Just tiny change and then no future movement? Switch to the Overview tab. Do you see changes in executed actions between the very first move (when Sonar reacted) and future? What is the change?
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Well, its time to ask you what you try to achieve with your _ScreenPage. I mean what logical modes you want in which physical mode. We have to clean up that function...
As you can see I have a very clear picture of what FX1 - Aux 4 should do - including their 2 or 3 pages each.
If you mean your _fScreePage definition, no... it is not clear picture ;)
Immediate question: when you change Screen, do Pages are remembered? I mean if you was on Screen Home Page 2, then change to Screen EQ and then back to Home, is it still Page 2?
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I would like the SOLO buttons to map to the Pre/Post for each Send 1-14.
No SOLO yet...
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EQ maps faders to Pro Channel EQ
ON1-16 maps to PC EQ on
Dynamics maps faders to PC Compressor
COMP ON 1-16 to PC Compressor ON
If you mean Ch 1-14 ON indicate switch EQ/Comp on each channel, that is possible (works reliably only in case corresponding module was ever switched ON in that project).
For controlling EQ/Comp itself, I propose to use ACT Dynamic mapping. For many bugs that works better (and faster...). The only 2 cases when it make sense provide different way
are: controlling several EQ/Comps from different strips (like with On) ; controlling several modules in parallel (f.e. EQ + Comp).
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Pan to Sonar Gain
You remember that Pan knob has only 32 states, right? May be better have Fader Screen/Page for that?
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Pan/Routing Page 2 to map Pan control to INPUT patch
Page 3 to map Pan control to OUTPUT/Bus patch
Too buggy on Sonar side, even when work more or less correctly, requires real encoder or 2 buttons to work stable (pan 32 states knob is rather bad for that). AUX Tracks or FXes with side-chain enable brakes (I mean even a single one in the whole project) render that switching from control surfaces broken.
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Phase Delay Page 1 to map to Sonar phase
Is that not just a switch like mute/solo? May be some page in Home screen? I do not remember what we have defined by "ON" button modes and may be it is better move that to pages. I mean echo/phase/rec.arm/auto.rec.arm... we have 2 sets of buttons, so with 5 pages 10 parameters can be covered. And we can "free" ON buttons. F.e. make Master ON dedicated "Track/Bus" switch.
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Crazy idea 1) You said 8 ACT faders was not enough. How many ACT controls would you think are necessary? Should the remaining screen buttons be assigned to ACT too? Obviously they have 14 faders, 28 buttons and 112 EQ rotaries per screen/Page combination.. I'll step away from the ledge now... :-X :-\ :o ;D
Taking reworking of Ch17-24 into account, may be we should move ACT to another Screen, where all 14 channels are available. And use Option I/O for something else where 8 channel is sufficient (f.e. all sends from current strip).
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Crazy idea 2) Put the Mode buttons on top row, and provide more instant touch transports buttons on ST/Master and RTN1&2 ONs?
With "Mode" switching with Home Pages and Track/Bus on Master ON, RTN1/2 ON can go to transport. (we have play or Solo already, so 2 buttons should be sufficient).
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From my understanding, Option I/O should select Ch 17-24 for current general Fader mode. I mean if AUX1 is selected, Options I/O switch first 8 faders as controlling Ch 17-24 AUX1.
No. Without the hardware to see what it does this bit certainly can be confusing. Touching OPTION I/O sets first 8 faders to CH 17-24 Channel fader regardless of previous fader mode Aux/FX etc..
17-24's Aux 1&2, FX 1&2 are LCD screen controls only. Page 58 of the User Manual has a photo of OPT I/I page 2.. The fader and EQ G and F are the only physical controls. Aux and FX must navigate with cursor and data wheel.
In LOCAL OFF mode, Pages 1,3 and 4 are disabled - they simply say RESERVED and page 5 while it has settings, they don't make any practical sense to use.. We could use the OPTION I/O pages as the ACT banks, freeing up some buttons, and giving 5*8 ACT faders
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I think that make sense, for example you modify some BUS FX and want mute some sends to it. So, you stay let say in AUX2 and switch Option I/O (a kind of On/Off, I do not know how it works on 01v, can you just press it second time or you have to press AUX2 explicitly?). I think that is more logical than ask switching to Home and then to Options I/O (which will be the case to control something different for AUX2 Options I/O)
Hmm... If using ACT to modify the BUS FX, and wanting to mute the sends to it, I would start in OPT I/O to control ACT, then just press AUX 2 to turn sends On and Off. No, there is no need to go Home first. Really quick operation.
[/quote]
Agrrrrrr......
I will have to remove all that Ch17-24 (I mean rework basic faders definition).
There was too many SysExes in your preset, without separating what is "hardware" and what is "software".
I will keep (not working) EQ/Comp parameters in place (for F G and possible the wheel), but it is time to remove all other "software only" parameters. They really make no sense.
But lets fix all currently know problems before I make new...
Ok, probably EVERYTHING is broken... again... but hopefully the LAST time ;)
I have eliminated Ch17-24 for Fader/ON/SOLO and transfered the logic into Ch1-8 for HWFader in OptionIO.
The logic still have to be the same, in addition Option I/O should control ACT Dynamic mapping (SOLO should indicate/switch the bank).
SOLO for AUX in default mode should control send Pre/Post.
Now we really should make all that work correctly, in all Fader Modes.
---------------------------
The "fun part" with defining screen/page/fader mode logic will be more or less simple. Practically the change will be in
* ON Select (may be Set/Feedback)
* SOLO Select (may be Set/Feedback)
* may be SEL 17-24 commands
* Fader Select
* _Mode :: Monitor
* _HWFaderMode :: Monitor
* _Screen / _Page :: Monitor (not yet defined)
So :
1) _ScreenPage will be reduced to setting HWFaderMode , Screen and Page states
2) corresponding monitors adjust some other states (effectively On and Solo MonitorModes) and "reset" strip controls (so faders/LED are kept in sync, even if the value does not change)
3) corresponding Select functions (so exactly 3 action lists for ON/SOLO/Faders, than we go for Pan, then F/G, may be some other "software" parameters from EQ/Comp/Phase if you still want
them when we are so far...) will define THE WHOLE Logic what is controlled and when, based on Screen, Page and HWFaderMode. As I wrote before all our efforts so far was to prepare that ;)
Sorry for the delay in replying. I've had a couple of huge weeks with a corporate conference gig and designing, making and rigging a Mid-Side mic array from the roof of an auditorium for a choir recital recording.
I'll get to testing this tonight or tomorrow. I have to setup my "on location" rack in the studio again.
No problem, we already in progress for one year, several weeks is not a big delay ;)
Ok, here goes: Replying to your last 2 development messages in one post:
Quote from: azslow3 on May 11, 2017, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: Linzmeister on May 11, 2017, 02:10:25 PM
Quote from: azslow3 on May 10, 2017, 06:31:59 PM
Ok, removed. It still was there for 1-8 channels ON in your last version (comment was for 9-16 only).
There was some ignoreSelect() in Master ON and RTNs 1&2 ON.
Removed.
nice and clean now
Quote from: azslow3 on May 11, 2017, 04:00:30 PM
Quote
Pressing any of ST Master, RTN1 or RTN 2 ON buttons started the MODE oscillating: Auto --> Default --> Auto --> Default (ON 1-14 and SOLO 1-14 were trying to keep up and were flashing too)
I could see the last midi message On Btn St/Master() value changing f-->7-->f--> 7 too.. the Master and RTNs can stay with positive logic permanently as they never affect Mute or Send ON.[/quote
I forgot to remove looping back option for St ON. Fixed.
yup, all good.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 11, 2017, 04:00:30 PM
Quote
Getting better. After I let go of the Master Fader, I see Sonar Fader move a tiny bit. After MotorTimeout, 01V fader motor gives a little tick sound. Sometimes a large jump +/- 15db or more. Moving 01V fader causes Sonar Fader to jump to catch up to 01V.
I could not understand the the problem, so a bit more detailed please:
1) you move WAI BUS fader in Sonar (or WAI BUS Send in Sonar, when 01Y in AUX Fader modes). Does 01V moves correctly? If not, is that in all modes (Home, AUX-14, FX) or in some? If it moves, but not correctly, what is exact observation?
2) you move Master fader on 01v. What is happening in Sonar? Just tiny change and then no future movement? Switch to the Overview tab. Do you see changes in executed actions between the very first move (when Sonar reacted) and future? What is the change?
OK, so after some very careful fader positioning and observation I can say -
in Default Mode, Home Screen Page 1 - WAI 14 TRACKS & 1 BUS mode:
Using 01V Master Fader to set Sonar Master Fader at 0.0db, the 01V fader moves to -7.0db - Sonar Master Fader stays at 0.00
Using Sonar Master fader to set 01V Master Fader at 0.0db, the 01V fader moves to -7.0db - Sonar Master Fader stays at 0.00
Then moving Sonar Master Fader, 01V fader Jumps back up to 0.0 position and drops back down when mouse button is released.
Moving 01V Master fader the least amount possible, sonar Master fader jumps to -7.0 db
Moving 01V Master fader to -20.3 db - Sonar fader stays at -20.3, 01V Master fader jumps up to -7.3db.
Moving 01V Master fader the least amount possible, Sonar Master fader jumps to -7.3db to track 01V..
Using either 01V or Sonar Master fader to set to - infinity, 01V fader Master jumps up to -7 ish db - Sonar Fader stays at - infinity
There appears to be an error in the feedback to the 01V - such that it always wants to return to somewhere around -7 give or take a little bit - regardless of the Sonar Level.
Same results in WAI
15 BUS mode...
Only 01V MASTER FADER jumps to -7db after every level change.
The CH faders behave exactly as expected.. Set a level, it stays at the the set level.
In WAI
Tracks Mode - Aux Screen, the Master Fader is controlling the Aux send # of the assigned Buss, not the fader of the assigned Buss. If I want to control the Aux sends of busses, I will switch to WAI BUS mode go to AUX screen and use ch faders to adjust levels.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 11, 2017, 04:00:30 PM
Immediate question: when you change Screen, do Pages are remembered? I mean if you was on Screen Home Page 2, then change to Screen EQ and then back to Home, is it still Page 2?
yes.. AND every time I change from one screen to another it confirms which page it is on by sending another Selected Channel message with current screen and page #s. You don't need to keep track of which page each screen is in. It will tell you every time a screen is changed what the current screen & page is.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 11, 2017, 04:00:30 PM
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EQ maps faders to Pro Channel EQ
ON1-16 maps to PC EQ on
Dynamics maps faders to PC Compressor
COMP ON 1-16 to PC Compressor ON
If you mean Ch 1-14 ON indicate switch EQ/Comp on each channel, that is possible (works reliably only in case corresponding module was ever switched ON in that project).
For controlling EQ/Comp itself, I propose to use ACT Dynamic mapping. For many bugs that works better (and faster...). The only 2 cases when it make sense provide different way are: controlling several EQ/Comps from different strips (like with On) ; controlling several modules in parallel (f.e. EQ + Comp).
Yes, so in EQ/COMP screens, Faders and ON/SOLO become ACT controls, SELect chooses channel to edit as already done and faders control SELected Pro Channel EQ and Compressor respectively.
Maybe a PAN&Routing or Phase/Delay or Home Screen Page 3 screen can be general ACT controllers for Reverbs, Delays, Sonitus Gate, third party ACT plugins etc.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 11, 2017, 04:00:30 PM
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Pan to Sonar Gain
You remember that Pan knob has only 32 states, right? May be better have Fader Screen/Page for that?
yes, faders can do that job. - Maybe use PAN&Routing Page 2
Quote from: azslow3 on May 11, 2017, 04:00:30 PM
Quote
Pan/Routing Page 2 to map Pan control to INPUT patch
Page 3 to map Pan control to OUTPUT/Bus patch
Too buggy on Sonar side, even when work more or less correctly, requires real encoder or 2 buttons to work stable (pan 32 states knob is rather bad for that). AUX Tracks or FXes with side-chain enable brakes (I mean even a single one in the whole project) render that switching from control surfaces broken.
Ooh. You seem to have discovered many Cakewalk's flaws. So it would work up until a Sidechain FX is in inserted??
Can Faders can do that job? While Routing Inputs and Outputs for recording, I would normally do that prior to loading any sidechain compression busses. But if I create a template with sidechain FX, it would be broken from the very beginning??
Quote from: azslow3 on May 11, 2017, 04:00:30 PM
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Phase Delay Page 1 to map to Sonar phase
Is that not just a switch like mute/solo? May be some page in Home screen? I do not remember what we have defined by "ON" button modes and may be it is better move that to pages. I mean echo/phase/rec.arm/auto.rec.arm... we have 2 sets of buttons, so with 5 pages 10 parameters can be covered. And we can "free" ON buttons. F.e. make Master ON dedicated "Track/Bus" switch.
Yes, it is a button switch. ON/Solo could do it. less physical controls to keep track of.. My only thought was that they neatly show
NOR and
REVQuote from: azslow3 on May 11, 2017, 04:00:30 PM
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Crazy idea 1) You said 8 ACT faders was not enough. How many ACT controls would you think are necessary? Should the remaining screen buttons be assigned to ACT too? Obviously they have 14 faders, 28 buttons and 112 EQ rotaries per screen/Page combination.. I'll step away from the ledge now... :-X :-\ :o ;D
Taking reworking of Ch17-24 into account, may be we should move ACT to another Screen, where all 14 channels are available. And use Option I/O for something else where 8 channel is sufficient (f.e. all sends from current strip).
Due to my delay in replying it looks like you have done this in v2.9 already.. comments below
Quote from: azslow3 on May 11, 2017, 04:00:30 PM
Quote
Crazy idea 2) Put the Mode buttons on top row, and provide more instant touch transports buttons on ST/Master and RTN1&2 ONs?
With "Mode" switching with Home Pages and Track/Bus on Master ON, RTN1/2 ON can go to transport. (we have play or Solo already, so 2 buttons should be sufficient).
The reason I suggested the Top row (UTILITY, MIDI, SETUP, VIEW [& HOME]), is that they can be one touch buttons (ignoring the pages of some screens) and I can jump from one to the other and back to HOME - without paging through HOME pages, 3,4,5 to get back to page 1.. A long press does go backwards 1 page, but operational speed is my goal.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 11, 2017, 04:00:30 PM
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From my understanding, Option I/O should select Ch 17-24 for current general Fader mode. I mean if AUX1 is selected, Options I/O switch first 8 faders as controlling Ch 17-24 AUX1.
No. Without the hardware to see what it does this bit certainly can be confusing. Touching OPTION I/O sets first 8 faders to CH 17-24 Channel fader regardless of previous fader mode Aux/FX etc..
17-24's Aux 1&2, FX 1&2 are LCD screen controls only. Page 58 of the User Manual has a photo of OPT I/I page 2.. The fader and EQ G and F are the only physical controls. Aux and FX must navigate with cursor and data wheel.
In LOCAL OFF mode, Pages 1,3 and 4 are disabled - they simply say RESERVED and page 5 while it has settings, they don't make any practical sense to use.. We could use the OPTION I/O pages as the ACT banks, freeing up some buttons, and giving 5*8 ACT faders
Quote
I think that make sense, for example you modify some BUS FX and want mute some sends to it. So, you stay let say in AUX2 and switch Option I/O (a kind of On/Off, I do not know how it works on 01v, can you just press it second time or you have to press AUX2 explicitly?). I think that is more logical than ask switching to Home and then to Options I/O (which will be the case to control something different for AUX2 Options I/O)
Hmm... If using ACT to modify the BUS FX, and wanting to mute the sends to it, I would start in OPT I/O to control ACT, then just press AUX 2 to turn sends On and Off. No, there is no need to go Home first. Really quick operation.
Agrrrrrr......
I will have to remove all that Ch17-24 (I mean rework basic faders definition).
There was too many SysExes in your preset, without separating what is "hardware" and what is "software".
I will keep (not working) EQ/Comp parameters in place (for F G and possible the wheel), but it is time to remove all other "software only" parameters. They really make no sense.
You have a far superior understanding than I do here. I was scared when I first read your comment, but looking at how you have made it work and reading the preset functions, I think you are right on the money.
You can completely delete the Bus 1-4 logic, context and hardware controls. You have already far exceeded my expectations with buss control.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 12, 2017, 06:18:02 PM
Ok, probably EVERYTHING is broken... again... but hopefully the LAST time ;)
I have eliminated Ch17-24 for Fader/ON/SOLO and transfered the logic into Ch1-8 for HWFader in OptionIO.
The logic still have to be the same, in addition Option I/O should control ACT Dynamic mapping (SOLO should indicate/switch the bank).
SOLO for AUX in default mode should control send Pre/Post.
Beautiful!! Yup, Solo controlling and indicating Pre/Post status on 6 sends.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 12, 2017, 06:18:02 PM
Now we really should make all that work correctly, in all Fader Modes.
I can feel it getting better and better with each revision that is made.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 12, 2017, 06:18:02 PM
The "fun part" with defining screen/page/fader mode logic will be more or less simple. Practically the change will be in
* ON Select (may be Set/Feedback)
* SOLO Select (may be Set/Feedback)
* may be SEL 17-24 commands
* Fader Select
* _Mode :: Monitor
* _HWFaderMode :: Monitor
* _Screen / _Page :: Monitor (not yet defined)
So :
1) _ScreenPage will be reduced to setting HWFaderMode , Screen and Page states
2) corresponding monitors adjust some other states (effectively On and Solo MonitorModes) and "reset" strip controls (so faders/LED are kept in sync, even if the value does not change)
3) corresponding Select functions (so exactly 3 action lists for ON/SOLO/Faders, than we go for Pan, then F/G, may be some other "software" parameters from EQ/Comp/Phase if you still want
them when we are so far...) will define THE WHOLE Logic what is controlled and when, based on Screen, Page and HWFaderMode. As I wrote before all our efforts so far was to prepare that ;)
This is the area I struggle with the most. I read the preset programming in this area, and I have to export with Marko's tool and try to flow chart in blocks what you are doing, because so many functions are called in sequence. I don't yet understand the monitoring and the feedback at all well.
Sorry, I forgot to look at the Last MIDI Event while checking the Master Fader stuff.
Setting to 0.00 24 65, after it jumps, and I move it the least amount possible it sends Faders input 00 [24 47] or [24 4a] - down/up respectively so the feedback value is in between those 2 values.
Quote from: Linzmeister on May 23, 2017, 04:15:54 PM
OK, so after some very careful fader positioning and observation I can say -
...
I have tried to understand what can be wrong with the master fader... doing so, I have clean/fixed several other things ;)
But I have not found anything wring in AZ Controller output to 01V.
Reading all your observations, especially:
Quote
Then moving Sonar Master Fader, 01V fader Jumps back up to 0.0 position and drops back down when mouse button is released.
I come to the conclusion... that you have Volume Automation on this bus ???
Because the behavior in this case is (and should be) exactly as you describe. Sonar does not immediately visually revert the fader back to the automated value, but the value itself is reported from the automation, so 01V returns back to -7dB (probably strait line) every time it asks for the value (except when you move the fader my mouse in Sonar, till mouse is released, Sonar report fader position).
Quote
In WAI Tracks Mode - Aux Screen, the Master Fader is controlling the Aux send # of the assigned Buss, not the fader of the assigned Buss. If I want to control the Aux sends of busses, I will switch to WAI BUS mode go to AUX screen and use ch faders to adjust levels.
I see you do not like that, I removed AUX control for master fader, it should always control WAI Bus volume now.
Quote
Quote from: azslow3 on May 11, 2017, 04:00:30 PM
Quote
EQ maps faders to Pro Channel EQ
ON1-16 maps to PC EQ on
Dynamics maps faders to PC Compressor
COMP ON 1-16 to PC Compressor ON
If you mean Ch 1-14 ON indicate switch EQ/Comp on each channel, that is possible (works reliably only in case corresponding module was ever switched ON in that project).
For controlling EQ/Comp itself, I propose to use ACT Dynamic mapping. For many bugs that works better (and faster...). The only 2 cases when it make sense provide different way are: controlling several EQ/Comps from different strips (like with On) ; controlling several modules in parallel (f.e. EQ + Comp).
Yes, so in EQ/COMP screens, Faders and ON/SOLO become ACT controls, SELect chooses channel to edit as already done and faders control SELected Pro Channel EQ and Compressor respectively.
Quoting to discuss later...
Quote
Maybe a PAN&Routing or Phase/Delay or Home Screen Page 3 screen can be general ACT controllers for Reverbs, Delays, Sonitus Gate, third party ACT plugins etc.
"ACT Dynamic mapping" can control on plug-in at a time, the plug-in is selected by mouse or from the surface, so we just need keys to "find" correct one and focus.
Quote
Quote from: azslow3 on May 11, 2017, 04:00:30 PM
Quote
Pan to Sonar Gain
You remember that Pan knob has only 32 states, right? May be better have Fader Screen/Page for that?
yes, faders can do that job. - Maybe use PAN&Routing Page 2
See later, we need a big picture...
Quote
Quote from: azslow3 on May 11, 2017, 04:00:30 PM
Quote
Pan/Routing Page 2 to map Pan control to INPUT patch
Page 3 to map Pan control to OUTPUT/Bus patch
Too buggy on Sonar side, even when work more or less correctly, requires real encoder or 2 buttons to work stable (pan 32 states knob is rather bad for that). AUX Tracks or FXes with side-chain enable brakes (I mean even a single one in the whole project) render that switching from control surfaces broken.
Ooh. You seem to have discovered many Cakewalk's flaws. So it would work up until a Sidechain FX is in inserted??
Can Faders can do that job? While Routing Inputs and Outputs for recording, I would normally do that prior to loading any sidechain compression busses. But if I create a template with sidechain FX, it would be broken from the very beginning??
The bug is the following: Sonar accepts changes in In/Outs/Sends as absolute numeric numbers, so "0", "1", "2", etc. "Not connected" is usually "-1". And it has function "return max number" for that parameters. The problem - all unsupported routes (SideChains, AUX Tracks/Patch points) returning "-2", "max number" become incorrect and i have feeling something bad is going on in Sonar when surface try to operate these parameters.... There is yet another bug with naming of this connections, especially for Instrument tracks.
So, we can try later, but I can not guarantee we ever get satisfactory result.
Quote
Quote from: azslow3 on May 11, 2017, 04:00:30 PM
Quote
Phase Delay Page 1 to map to Sonar phase
Is that not just a switch like mute/solo? May be some page in Home screen? I do not remember what we have defined by "ON" button modes and may be it is better move that to pages. I mean echo/phase/rec.arm/auto.rec.arm... we have 2 sets of buttons, so with 5 pages 10 parameters can be covered. And we can "free" ON buttons. F.e. make Master ON dedicated "Track/Bus" switch.
Yes, it is a button switch. ON/Solo could do it. less physical controls to keep track of.. My only thought was that they neatly show NOR and REV
Moving mountains just because 01Y display by occasion can display 3 characters correctly for Sonar? I have already such project pending - implement complete Behringer XCtl DigitalMixers network protocol, just to allow displaying Sonar strip colors on X-Touch display ;)
Quote
The reason I suggested the Top row (UTILITY, MIDI, SETUP, VIEW [& HOME]), is that they can be one touch buttons (ignoring the pages of some screens) and I can jump from one to the other and back to HOME - without paging through HOME pages, 3,4,5 to get back to page 1.. A long press does go backwards 1 page, but operational speed is my goal.
...
You have a far superior understanding than I do here. I was scared when I first read your comment, but looking at how you have made it work and reading the preset functions, I think you are right on the money.
...
Quote from: azslow3 on May 12, 2017, 06:18:02 PM
Now we really should make all that work correctly, in all Fader Modes.
I can feel it getting better and better with each revision that is made.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 12, 2017, 06:18:02 PM
The "fun part" with defining screen/page/fader mode logic will be more or less simple. Practically the change will be in
...
This is the area I struggle with the most. I read the preset programming in this area, and I have to export with Marko's tool and try to flow chart in blocks what you are doing, because so many functions are called in sequence. I don't yet understand the monitoring and the feedback at all well.
May be I have written too much technical details about that. I will try with other view point.
At the moment, _ScreenPage is setting HWFaderMode, Screen, ScreenNum, Page, PageMode, PanMode, _FaderMode and does something with buses...
From all that currently in use
to know which messages expect and where to send the feedback:
* HWFaderMode, for strip faders and buttons
* ScreenNum/PageNum to correctly construct Select messages feedback
From all that currently in use
to define the logic, so what is controlled in Sonar:
* HWFaderMode, for Strip/AUX/ACT
* your bus manipulations (which I do not completely understand)
The rest is unused...
So, we KNOW what all controls (living EQ knobs a buttons and all internal parameters apart) send in each particular 01V mode and so where to send the feedback. That part is complete.
So we need a big picture for Logical part. So:
* what strip faders and buttons should control in each combination of HWFaderMode/Screen/Page
* how and where to define switches to select the plug-ins for ACT Dynamic mode (EQ/Comp/Synth/FX)
After that is defined, implemented and tested, we can proceed with "extra goodies", like defining something for EQ knobs/buttons, input/output selection, etc.
But as first... we need to return the master fader under control ;)
Aahhh, would you look at that...
I have been working with a single computer monitor for a couple of weeks.. Only re-connected the second monitor again last night so I can see console and track views at the same time...
Yes, there is automation recorded on the master bus.. -6.8 db straight line. Sometimes the simple things can trip a guy up... :-[
11pm here now. I will read thoroughly and test tomorrow night.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 24, 2017, 02:33:03 PM
Quote
In WAI Tracks Mode - Aux Screen, the Master Fader is controlling the Aux send # of the assigned Buss, not the fader of the assigned Buss. If I want to control the Aux sends of busses, I will switch to WAI BUS mode go to AUX screen and use ch faders to adjust levels.
I see you do not like that, I removed AUX control for master fader, it should always control WAI Bus volume now.
Thank you. To get the full effect of what I am chasing, could you change:
((None)) _fCh Select(_Ch) :
...
'Last action:OK' - Send (
HWFaderMode)-1 parameter Volume
((None)) _fSolo Select(_Ch) :
...
'Mode:Default' 'Last action:OK' - Send
(HWFaderMode)-1 parameter Pre/post
((None)) _fOn Select(_Ch) :
...
'Mode:Default' 'Last action:OK' - Send
(HWFaderMode)-1 parameter Enable
to ((None)) _fCh Select(_Ch) :
...
'Last action:OK' - Send (
_FaderMode)-1 parameter Volume
((None)) _fSolo Select(_Ch) :
...
'Mode:Default' 'Last action:OK' - Send (
_FaderMode)-1 parameter Pre/post
((None)) _fOn Select(_Ch) :
...
'Mode:Default' 'Last action:OK' - Send (
_FaderMode)-1 parameter Enable
This gives me 14 Aux sends in Sonar instead of 6 aux sends by utilizing the 2 or 3 pages each of FX1-Aux4 screens. :)
If it helps to make the meaning clearer, you can rename _FaderMode to SonarFaderMode before or after the edits above.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 24, 2017, 02:33:03 PM
The bug is the following: Sonar accepts changes in In/Outs/Sends as absolute numeric numbers, so "0", "1", "2", etc. "Not connected" is usually "-1". And it has function "return max number" for that parameters. The problem - all unsupported routes (SideChains, AUX Tracks/Patch points) returning "-2", "max number" become incorrect and i have feeling something bad is going on in Sonar when surface try to operate these parameters.... There is yet another bug with naming of this connections, especially for Instrument tracks.
So, we can try later, but I can not guarantee we ever get satisfactory result.
Ok.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 24, 2017, 02:33:03 PM
Quote
Quote from: azslow3 on May 11, 2017, 04:00:30 PM
Quote
Phase Delay Page 1 to map to Sonar phase
Is that not just a switch like mute/solo? May be some page in Home screen? I do not remember what we have defined by "ON" button modes and may be it is better move that to pages. I mean echo/phase/rec.arm/auto.rec.arm... we have 2 sets of buttons, so with 5 pages 10 parameters can be covered. And we can "free" ON buttons. F.e. make Master ON dedicated "Track/Bus" switch.
Yes, it is a button switch. ON/Solo could do it. less physical controls to keep track of.. My only thought was that they neatly show NOR and REV
Moving mountains just because 01Y display by occasion can display 3 characters correctly for Sonar? I have already such project pending - implement complete Behringer XCtl DigitalMixers network protocol, just to allow displaying Sonar strip colors on X-Touch display ;)
OK. Let's use one of the already defined buttons.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 24, 2017, 02:33:03 PM
At the moment, _ScreenPage is setting HWFaderMode, Screen, ScreenNum, Page, PageNum, PanMode, _FaderMode and does something with buses...
From all that currently in use to know which messages expect and where to send the feedback:
* HWFaderMode, for strip faders and buttons
* ScreenNum/PageNum to correctly construct Select messages feedback
From all that currently in use to define the logic, so what is controlled in Sonar:
* HWFaderMode, for Strip/AUX/ACT
* your bus manipulations (which I do not completely understand)
The bus manipulations are simply moving the WAI bus to the return of the current send. With the addition of the first request in this post, it means that when I go to 01V:
Aux1, Page 1, the faders control Sonar send 1 and the master Fader controls the bus 1. (Not the Master output)
Aux1, Page 2, the faders control Sonar send 2 and the master Fader controls the bus 2.
The idea is that when adjusting the send level on input tracks, I can also adjust the return of the Reverb or Delay RETURN's BUS volume.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 24, 2017, 02:33:03 PM
The rest is unused...
It could do with a little tidy up, but there is not much in there that is not being used is there?
Set:
Screen
HWFaderMode
_ScreenNum
Page
_PageNum
_PanMode - which you have indicated could be drastically reduced or completely removed and use faders for the functions I was thinking of using PAN controls for instead. Although I would like it to become Aux 1-14 Pan control...
_FaderMode -
Translates 01V Aux Send 1- FX 2 into Sonar Aux Send 1-14 Move WAI Bus to corresponding
Aux Return 1-14 Bus Choose Tracks or Busses based on Home Screen Page number
Quote from: azslow3 on May 24, 2017, 02:33:03 PMSo we need a big picture for Logical part. So:
* what strip faders and buttons should control in each combination of HWFaderMode/Screen/Page
* how and where to define switches to select the plug-ins for ACT Dynamic mode (EQ/Comp/Synth/FX)
How would you like to construct the big picture?
I have some ideas, but you have far more experience in Sonar control surface API and automation control. It seems when I offer ideas, you say they are too hard/not practical/ won't work etc.
Do want to ask a set of questions and I answer them for you?
Quote from: azslow3 on May 24, 2017, 02:33:03 PMSo we need a big picture for Logical part. So:
After that is defined, implemented and tested, we can proceed with "extra goodies", like defining something for EQ knobs/buttons, input/output selection, etc.
I would think that is part of the big picture...
The Return SELect buttons and Master/Out of WAI Indicator are not working as they once did. I am pretty sure I broke them when integrating _fScreenPage into the feedback of SELect. I can press each of these 3 buttons and they just stay on. When working correctly, you didn't permit SELecting the MASTER and SELecting a RTN 1 or 2 behaved like a momentary switch and SELect returned to the currently selected channel or Out of WAI indicator as appropriate.
Hi Alexy,
Because I have been so busy the last couple of weeks, I have not been looking very closely at the programming changes
you have been making in the preset - I have been simply testing the things you have asked me to test. Well, last night I took an export of v2.10 and I've have been reading through it in text form and comparing it to v2.2 in Total Commander.WOW!!!
There are so many new lines of programming. I see the basic overview of your work and it is really impressive how you have consolidated the MIDI messages down to such a small number of AZC hardware controls and retained all of the flexibility. I have said it before, but let me say it again. I love your work!! Excellent job and Thank you very much.
Please load the latest test AZ Controller, b364.
Quote
The Return SELect buttons and Master/Out of WAI Indicator are not working as they once did. I am pretty sure I broke them when integrating _fScreenPage into the feedback of SELect. I can press each of these 3 buttons and they just stay on. When working correctly, you didn't permit SELecting the MASTER and SELecting a RTN 1 or 2 behaved like a momentary switch and SELect returned to the currently selected channel or Out of WAI indicator as appropriate.
We both have contributed in breaking it... So effectively SEL feedback was not working. Not it should work, but that means 01V can start to react on that and so please do not be surprise if you observe some weird hardware mode changing behavior.
Thanks to your explanation, I now understand what you have tried to achieve in _ScreenPage.
So, I am starting to describe and implement the "big picture":
* Logically the device can be in 3 GlobalModes : Default, Send, ACT
* Default mode basically correspond to Home Hardware Fader mode, but see remark/question later.
--- in Default mode, Home Screen, Page 1 and Page 2 switch between Tracks and Buses. Focus in Sonar is also moved. The selection is kept also in Send Global Mode
* Send mode is activated by AUX and FX Fader Hardware Mode buttons.
--- Depending on AUX/FX Screens and page, particular Send is activated (I have tried to reproduce your definition)
--- In Send mode, Fader/On/Mute/Pan control Send Volume/On/Pre.post/Pan of corresponding send for corresponding strip
--- Master fader controls the volume of fixed Bus, calculated as "Send number + 1", so starting the second bus. That doest NOT change BUS WAI. The reason is the following: when switching between Default and Sends mode, controlled by Master bus should be changed. For tracks that is possible to organize by temporarily changing WAI, but what do do in bus mode? We need WAI pointing to buses, so we can not use WAI also for the Master if it should control the send target volume. Should I keep as I have defined now? In Send+Bus mode use master as 15th (ok... first) send controller instead of controlling target volume? something else?
* ACT mode in currently activated by OptionIO, but now the remark/question...
If I have understood you correctly, when you activate top buttons, Fader Hardware mode is switched to "Home". If we want activate ACT mode on EQ/Comp/etc upper mode buttons, we probably need to move ACT mode from OptionIO, otherwise the following will happened: EQ pressed -> EQ is selected, ACT mode is activated which in turn should activate OptionIO mode, which in turn deselect EQ mode... Do I get it right? If yes, we can use "home" HW fader mode for normal and ACT Logical modes, leaving OptionIO for ... I do not know yet what exactly ;)
Quote from: Linzmeister on May 25, 2017, 03:28:00 PM
Thank you. To get the full effect of what I am chasing, could you change:
...
FaderMode is removed at the moment, it is replaced by GlobalMode and SendN, to simplify definitions. But it should work as you described.
Quote
Quote from: azslow3 on May 24, 2017, 02:33:03 PM
The rest is unused...
It could do with a little tidy up, but there is not much in there that is not being used is there?
Set:
Screen
HWFaderMode
_ScreenNum
Page
_PageNum
_PanMode - which you have indicated could be drastically reduced or completely removed and use faders for the functions I was thinking of using PAN controls for instead. Although I would like it to become Aux 1-14 Pan control...
_FaderMode - Translates 01V Aux Send 1- FX 2 into Sonar Aux Send 1-14
Move WAI Bus to corresponding Aux Return 1-14 Bus
Choose Tracks or Busses based on Home Screen Page number
_ScreenNum/_PageNum removed (was not working in any case, Screen and Page do the trick alone)
PanMode was not used and at the moment removed. For Default/Send Global Modes, GlobalMode/SendN define what Pan should control. Other use cases are not yet defined.
Quote
How would you like to construct the big picture?
I have some ideas, but you have far more experience in Sonar control surface API and automation control. It seems when I offer ideas, you say they are too hard/not practical/ won't work etc.
I think you misinterpret my objections about the "big picture". For sure that is not to drop/refuse your ideas and/or scare you!
As you have noticed in your last post, till now every time there is a new idea or something a bit more clear about 01V behavior, I had to almost completely rewrite the preset. I think it is about time to put the preset into stage where I no longer have to modify everything every time. Then we can continue adding new staff. The problem is your and my time: as long as we grow the functionality/the number of controls and in parallel change general approach we have to spend more and more time to modify/test the preset, the number of possible mistakes increase with the number of places which have to be modified.
So the "big picture" is what I have started to define in this post, what logical mode should be triggered by each operation on 01V, precisely, per Page/Screen + other modifiers.
So, so far we have HW Fader button dependent modes + Pages in some of them + rightmost ON buttons dependent buttons modes.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 26, 2017, 04:10:51 PM
Quote
The Return SELect buttons and Master/Out of WAI Indicator are not working as they once did. I am pretty sure I broke them when integrating _fScreenPage into the feedback of SELect. I can press each of these 3 buttons and they just stay on. When working correctly, you didn't permit SELecting the MASTER and SELecting a RTN 1 or 2 behaved like a momentary switch and SELect returned to the currently selected channel or Out of WAI indicator as appropriate.
We both have contributed in breaking it... So effectively SEL feedback was not working. Not it should work, but that means 01V can start to react on that and so please do not be surprise if you observe some weird hardware mode changing behavior.
Beautiful. Can change banks again. Out of WAI working again.
Interestingly, I was in Aux Fader mode when I tried banking, and it does appear possible to SELect NULL Channel. This would be because the ST Master was SELected, but the control surface was showing me Aux X Master which was not SELected. I wouldn't bother about changing it though..
Quote from: azslow3 on May 26, 2017, 04:10:51 PM
Thanks to your explanation, I now understand what you have tried to achieve in _ScreenPage.
So, I am starting to describe and implement the "big picture":
* Logically the device can be in 3 GlobalModes : Default, Send, ACT
* Default mode basically correspond to Home Hardware Fader mode, but see remark/question later.
--- in Default mode, Home Screen, Page 1 and Page 2 switch between Tracks and Buses. Focus in Sonar is also moved. The selection is kept also in Send Global Mode
* Send mode is activated by AUX and FX Fader Hardware Mode buttons.
--- Depending on AUX/FX Screens and page, particular Send is activated (I have tried to reproduce your definition)
--- In Send mode, Fader/On/Mute/Pan control Send Volume/On/Pre.post/Pan of corresponding send for corresponding strip
Yup, input faders controlling 14 Sends still working. Operational behavior accurately reproduced with the addition of the Send PAN control.
In Sends GlobalMode the Master Fader didn't do anything at first. Then after moving a channel send fader, the master fader controlled last touched send in Sonar and after timeout it started feeding back data to input fader on 01V too.
I also noticed that when the 01V AUX Master was changing the SELected track. Even if I had Track 8 selected before starting, moving the Master fader selects 1 until full volume then Track 2 became selected. When I reduced the Master level track 1 was selected again.
Master Fader works correctly in Default GlobalMode.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 26, 2017, 04:10:51 PM
--- Master fader controls the volume of fixed Bus, calculated as "Send number + 1", so starting the second bus. That does NOT change BUS WAI. The reason is the following: when switching between Default and Sends mode, controlled by Master bus should be changed. For tracks that is possible to organize by temporarily changing WAI, but what do do in bus mode? We need WAI pointing to buses, so we can not use WAI also for the Master if it should control the send target volume. Should I keep as I have defined now? In Send+Bus mode use master as 15th (ok... first) send controller instead of controlling target volume? something else?
You have thought more deeply than I had. You are correct. I hadn't moved past Tracks mode. Leave BUS WAI as you have it now. It makes perfect sense.... now that I think about it deeply too. ::)
Quote from: azslow3 on May 26, 2017, 04:10:51 PM
* ACT mode in currently activated by OptionIO, but now the remark/question...
If I have understood you correctly, when you activate top buttons, Fader Hardware mode is switched to "Home". If we want activate ACT mode on EQ/Comp/etc upper mode buttons, we probably need to move ACT mode from OptionIO, otherwise the following will happened: EQ pressed -> EQ is selected, ACT mode is activated which in turn should activate OptionIO mode, which in turn deselect EQ mode... Do I get it right? If yes, we can use "home" HW fader mode for normal and ACT Logical modes, leaving OptionIO for ... I do not know yet what exactly ;)
Yes, Right again. EQ -> ACT -> OPTION I/O would not work. I am sorry. I can only see a smaller # of pieces of the puzzle.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 26, 2017, 04:10:51 PM
Quote from: Linzmeister on May 25, 2017, 03:28:00 PM
Thank you. To get the full effect of what I am chasing, could you change:
...
FaderMode is removed at the moment, it is replaced by GlobalMode and SendN, to simplify definitions. But it should work as you described.
yes it does - with the above comments about master fader.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 26, 2017, 04:10:51 PM
Quote
How would you like to construct the big picture?
I have some ideas, but you have far more experience in Sonar control surface API and automation control. It seems when I offer ideas, you say they are too hard/not practical/ won't work etc.
I think you misinterpret my objections about the "big picture". For sure that is not to drop/refuse your ideas and/or scare you!
As you have noticed in your last post, till now every time there is a new idea or something a bit more clear about 01V behavior, I had to almost completely rewrite the preset. I think it is about time to put the preset into stage where I no longer have to modify everything every time. Then we can continue adding new staff. The problem is your and my time: as long as we grow the functionality/the number of controls and in parallel change general approach we have to spend more and more time to modify/test the preset, the number of possible mistakes increase with the number of places which have to be modified.
Yeah, I know that you know more about the automation implementation and you know that I know more about the 01V. With each development iteration you learn more about the 01V and I learn more about AZC...
I certainly don't want to waste your time and I would love to get into a couple of mixes that I have been delaying so that I can actually work fast on them.
Quote from: azslow3 on May 26, 2017, 04:10:51 PM
So the "big picture" is what I have started to define in this post, what logical mode should be triggered by each operation on 01V, precisely, per Page/Screen + other modifiers.
So, so far we have HW Fader button dependent modes + Pages in some of them + rightmost ON buttons dependent buttons modes.
Let me preface this with "I don't exactly know what is practical or necessary"... so let's discuss before diving into modifications.
Dynamics Pgs1&2 - ACT banks 1&2 (?) for pro channel compressors and maybe console emulation and saturation
EQ Pgs1&2- ACT bank 3&4 (?) for pro channel EQ HPF, low GFQ low Mid GFQ, high Mid GFQ Hi GFQ LPF, on
Home Pgs 3,4&5 - Act Banks 5,6&7 (?) Sonitus and FX plugin control.
As mentioned ages ago, I don't do anything with soft synths or sound modules, but any other people who want to carry on from where I leave off may find it useful to have the foundations in place. I see each version is getting ~4 downloads so someone is watching our progress.. :-\
OPTION I/O banks 8-16 (?) or just un-assigned if too many..
I have never successfully used ACT before. I know the default cakewalk ACT controller has 4 banks x 8 faders, rotors, buttons, but I saw that you had given the 01V 8 banks x 8 faders and 8 buttons on Option I/O.
How many are really necessary? I do not want to re-invent the wheel.
Ah... sorry, after all modification at several places I have made a stupid typo in Master Fader Send mode selection, a kind of "ruining" the behavior I have described before.
The fix is attached.
For ACT, my next step is to move it away from OptionIO (since you has confirmed it is not going to work nicely there, also that is the mode with just 8 strips). For banks "on" buttons are reserved, we do not need more then 4, impossible to remember for normal human ;) I will explain you how that works then, probably we will need to meet online in Skype then.
That fixed the master fader in sends GlobalMode nicely.
I have sent a Skype contact request to you.. When would suit you?
I do not see the request... but that is probably the simplest problem from all we had to solve ;)
With time that can be harder. I am stably in the internet at the evening, after 19:00 (GTM+1), but for you that is probably bad time. I am also around computer during the day, just not the whole day (weekends). When you thing you can be online?
I'll be putting my son to bed in 45 minutes.. Midday your time I think. Anytime after that works for me.
Maybe I tried the wrong username... Sent another, maybe to you this time.. .?
Yes, this time i could accept your invitation. If I can escape from driving to the market with my family, I will be there. But you know, that kind of things are hard to promise :)
Hi Alexy,
I was reading through an export of the last version today, learning to understand how you think. I stumbled across a couple of copy/paste errors - not related to the current focus, but they may catch up to us eventually.
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 2 ) EQ Input 02 :
...
- Value < 68
'Last action:OK' - Call ((None)) Q Lo-Mid : *
...
- Value < 120 *
'Last action:OK' - Call ((None)) Enc_G Low : *
should read Enc_F Lo-Mid in the middle
and Failed at the end
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 4 ) EQ Input 04 :
...
- Value < 126 *
'Last action:OK' - Call ((None)) Comp Ratio : *
should read Failed also I think.
Re: the big picture we have been discussing:
I think we could free up some On/Solo buttons if we use the Dynamics Pages 1&2 and EQ Pages 1&2 for ACT Bank selection.
I remember correctly... on Saturday you said we would need:
First FX, Next/Previous FX,
First Pro Channel, Next, Previous PC,
First VSTi, Next, Prev VSTi ?????? not that I care about these personally, but others might
ACT Learn, ACT Lock
Show/Hide AZ Display
Show/Hide Sonar Inspector
I am not sure about the VSTi.. I thought you mentioned it very briefly..
Removing the bank buttons from On/Solo, means the above 13 buttons will fit on 1 row. Trying to fit banks in will mean losing a couple of the above list.
Have I been brilliant or stupid?
Thanks for spotted bugs. I have fixed that, but we can not test the result till I apply some logic to there knobs.
Since current revision is 13, it can be bad ;)
I have moved ACT Dynamic Mapping to "normal" (Home) Fader mode. It should be:
* activated by EQ or Comp screens.
* EQ select ProChannel EQ for current strip, SELecting channels (SEL buttons should still work as in other modes) while in EQ Screen should move the focus to corresponding EQ (can add Page dependent other FXes there, f.e. Comp, other ProChannel or FX Bin plug-ins)
* Comp activate ACT Mode, but does NOT change the plug-in in focus (if you switch between mixing and controlling ACT, you probably not always want to "reset" it to some particular plug-in, that is why I have chosen separate Mode button, to make the switching quick)
* In ACT mode, Faders and ON are controlling plug-ins, SOLO defines what to control. I have tried to support Transport button mode as well, so switching to it should work which in ACT mode.
* SOLO buttons are:
(1) - Toggle AZ Controller Display (which shows current global mode and the mapping in ACT mode, faders with parameter values, switches without since they should have LED feedback)
(2) - Open plug-in GUI (only works only when the first fader is mapped... it is in my TODO list to avoid this limitation)
(3/4) - Move focus to "previous"/"next" plug-in. Should work for modules and FXes, but "cross the border" of strips (Sonar "feature"...)
(5,6,7) - focus the first plug-in in ProChannel (current strip), FX bin (current strip), Synth Rack
(8,7,10) - not assigned
(11,12,13,14) - select ACT Bank 1-4 (should indicate current with LED...)
G'day,
This will take me some time to test thoroughly. More for the benefit of getting my head around it properly - no nasty bugs with unexplained behavior.. 13 is only unlucky if you believe in superstition :). I make my own luck.. ;)
Initially, the ACT bank selection was indicating 1 channel to the left. I changed:
((None)) _fSolo DefValue(_Ch,&YesN) :
...
'GlobalMode:ACT' 'ACT Bank:1' '_Ch:10' - _YesNo -> Yes
'GlobalMode:ACT' 'ACT Bank:2' '_Ch:11' - _YesNo -> Yes
'GlobalMode:ACT' 'ACT Bank:3' '_Ch:12' - _YesNo -> Yes
'GlobalMode:ACT' 'ACT Bank:4' '_Ch:13/14' - _YesNo -> Yes
to
'GlobalMode:ACT' 'ACT Bank:1' '_Ch:11' - _YesNo -> Yes
'GlobalMode:ACT' 'ACT Bank:2' '_Ch:12' - _YesNo -> Yes
'GlobalMode:ACT' 'ACT Bank:3' '_Ch:13/14' - _YesNo -> Yes
'GlobalMode:ACT' 'ACT Bank:4' '_Ch:15/16' - _YesNo -> Yes
and that all lined up correctly.
After touching PC modules and exiting,
ACT Fix, save and exit
ACT Learn Track Compressor, closing
ACT Fix, save and exit
ACT Learn Track EQ, closing
ACT Fix, save and exit
I noticed that the ACT PREV button doesn't appear to do anything. ACT NEXT cycles forward through PC/FX bins as expected.
In ACT Mode, we will need to use the IgnoreSelect on the Solo buttons. I added the bottom 2 lines in the following:
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 61 0 f ) Solo Btns 1-8 :
'_Local:On' - Undefined *
- BtnMode == Default
'Last action:Failed' - IgnoreSelect -> Yes
- GlobalMode == ACT
'Last action:OK' - IgnoreSelect -> Yes
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 61 0 10 ) Solo Btns 9-RTN2 :
'_Local:On' - Undefined *
- BtnMode == Default
'Last action:Failed' - IgnoreSelect -> Yes
- GlobalMode == ACT
'Last action:OK' - IgnoreSelect -> Yes
This solved most of the false SElections, but there were a few instances after these insertions when Selected channel changed when it shouldn't have.
When I adjust ACT parameters from 01V, AZDisplay does not update with new values - ACT module updates knob graphics.
When I adjust ACT parameters with mouse, AZDisplay does update.
I have a bunch more to test, but I am too tired to make much observe carefully enough and very excited to spend more time testing. I can see it coming together. Don't provide another version until I have finished testing this one. I can see lot's of new functionality that I need to get familiar with.
So good!!
Hi Alexy,
After deleting the ACT XML files, and re-mapping a couple of plug ins the PREV button started working.. I have no idea what was going on there.
I noticed that the PC LF Q (bank1) & HMF Q (bank 2) Labels in AZ Display were missing - both assigned to _Ch6.
PC Compressor not showing Dry/Wet Label on _Ch6
Sonitus Gate look ahead parameter not showing any Label on _Ch6..
Sonitus Compressor Makeup Gain not showing anything on _Ch6
I had one instance when I had Selected Track 1 for ACT control, but Track 2 Compressor was being controlled.
I switched to busses and back to tracks and it seemed to sort it self out.
I have proper control of all ACT modules I have mapped so far (which is that many), moving slowly to make sure I get it right..
It's all looking very positive. For so many years I have wanted to use ACT with the 01v and now it is possible. Thank you again.
Hi Alexy,
I have made the AZDisplay bigger, partly for my benefit partly for anyone else who comes along - and I moved the existing info down a couple of rows so that I can show fixed text for the SOLO/ON buttons on the top 4 rows in Transport, Edit and ACT modes. I know I got a couple of captions wrong - and a couple are for future questions.
I have added a couple of calls to the new display functions, but it started to break, so I undid the last couple of calls. It correctly Displays and Clears the ACT Navigation Display items. I do not have any active calls to:
((None)) _fUpdateAZDispBtns
((None)) _fDispTransBtns
((None)) _fDispEditBtns
I began to put call to these functions in _fOn RTN 1 & _fOn RTN 2, but It wasn't clean.
This version includes the typo corrections I caught and the Ignore Select lines I discovered were needed too.
I am pretty comfortable with the world of ACT and ACTFix now... What's next on the agenda??
Linz.
Please install the latest test AZ Controller (no Yamaha specific changes in it).
I have applied both your patches verbatim ;)
Quote from: Linzmeister on May 30, 2017, 02:59:49 PM
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 61 0 10 ) Solo Btns 9-RTN2 :
'_Local:On' - Undefined *
- BtnMode == Default
'Last action:Failed' - IgnoreSelect -> Yes
- GlobalMode == ACT
'Last action:OK' - IgnoreSelect -> Yes
This solved most of the false SElections, but there were a few instances after these insertions when Selected channel changed when it shouldn't have.
I have not found the reason yet... please find particular sequence when that happened
Quote
I noticed that the ACT PREV button doesn't appear to do anything. ACT NEXT cycles forward through PC/FX bins as expected.
I send corresponding commands "as is" to Sonar. Except I do some safety checks (under some conditions, Sonar CRASH when executing these commands...).
Sometimes Sonar is unreliable there. Not much I can do.
Quote
When I adjust ACT parameters from 01V, AZDisplay does not update with new values - ACT module updates knob graphics.
When I adjust ACT parameters with mouse, AZDisplay does update.
I have tried to address that. But to do so I have changed the logic behind faders feedback. So let me know if feedback is no longer as it should (not moving to correct position, fighting fingers, etc).
Quote from: Linzmeister on June 01, 2017, 12:40:41 AM
I noticed that the PC LF Q (bank1) & HMF Q (bank 2) Labels in AZ Display were missing - both assigned to _Ch6.
PC Compressor not showing Dry/Wet Label on _Ch6
Sonitus Gate look ahead parameter not showing any Label on _Ch6..
Sonitus Compressor Makeup Gain not showing anything on _Ch6
Should be fixed.
Quote
I had one instance when I had Selected Track 1 for ACT control, but Track 2 Compressor was being controlled.
I switched to busses and back to tracks and it seemed to sort it self out.
In current logic, only in EQ Screen focus is change to corresponding EQ when you press SEL. So if you change focus by mouse or work with Compressor/other modules, auto-focusing does not work.
Ah.... we again have "version clash".... You have published the preset while I was preparing my 8)
Sorry, but can you explain which extras you have implemented in words? I prefer to redo that myself in my version. Not that I do not "trust" you, but this thing is quite complex at the moment, any touch can invisibly break something. I more or less keep the whole preset "in my head", so I know where to look in case some change/addition on one place should be also corrected in another...
Changed Display to 6 rows (intention being to have Solo on top 2 rows, On on Middle 2 rows, and faders on bottom 2 rows)
Mainly lots of:
- text ='abc'
- Display at (x,y)
I added functions:
((None)) _fUpdateAZDispBtns. Just calls functions below depending on _BtnsMode and _GlobalMode
((None)) _fDispTransBtns
((None)) _fDispEditBtns
((None)) _fDispActNavBtns
((None)) _fDispClear
Called DispActNav from _fSetActGlobalMode
Called DispClear from the end of _fSetSendGlobalMode and _fSetDefaultGlobalMode
Any existing calls to Display at(x,y) were increased by 2 rows:
_fOn TrNameMon
_fOn TrValMon
I can change the preset name and upload a diffently named version if that helps at all.
Typing this on tablet. Will post modified text from studio computer..
Using the export utility - the preset changes I made are:
((None)) _fSetDefaultGlobalMode :
...
- GlobalMode -> Default
- Call ((None)) _fDispClear :
- Undefined *
((None)) _fSetSendGlobalMode :
...
'Page:3' 'Screen:FX 2' - SendN -> 14
- Call ((None)) _fDispClear :
- Undefined *
((None)) _fSetACTGlobalMode :
...
- GlobalMode -> ACT
- Call ((None)) _fDispACTNavBtns :
- Undefined *
((None)) _fUpdateAZDispBtns :
'BtnMode:Transport' - Call ((None)) _fDispTransBtns :
'BtnMode:Edit' - Call ((None)) _fDispEditBtns :
'BtnMode:Default' - Call ((None)) _fDispClear :
'GlobalMode:ACT' - Call ((None)) _fDispACTNavBtns :
((None)) _fDispTransBtns :
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 2)
- Text = 'HOME'
- Display at (2, 2)
- Text = '< < <'
- Display at (1, 3)
- Text = 'MARKER'
- Display at (2, 3)
- Text = 'INSERT'
- Display at (1, 4)
- Text = 'MARKER'
- Display at (2, 4)
- Text = '> > >'
- Display at (1, 5)
- Text = 'MARKER'
- Display at (2, 5)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 6)
- Text = 'END'
- Display at (2, 6)
- Text = 'Clear Wrt'
- Display at (1, 7)
- Text = 'Automation'
- Display at (2, 7)
- Text = '| < ----'
- Display at (1, 8)
- Text = 'MARK IN'
- Display at (2, 8)
- Text = 'LOOP'
- Display at (1, 9)
- Text = 'Selection'
- Display at (2, 9)
- Text = 'PUNCH'
- Display at (1, 10)
- Text = 'Selection'
- Display at (2, 10)
- Text = ' ---- > |'
- Display at (1, 11)
- Text = 'MARK OUT'
- Display at (2, 11)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 12)
- Text = ''
- Display at (2, 12)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 13)
- Text = ''
- Display at (2, 13)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 14)
- Text = 'UNDO'
- Display at (2, 14)
- Text = 'SAVE'
- Display at (1, 15)
- Text = 'AS'
- Display at (2, 15)
- Text = '< < <'
- Display at (3, 2)
- Text = 'RWD'
- Display at (4, 2)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 3)
- Text = 'STOP'
- Display at (4, 3)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 4)
- Text = 'PLAY'
- Display at (4, 4)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 5)
- Text = 'RECORD'
- Display at (4, 5)
- Text = '> > >'
- Display at (3, 6)
- Text = 'F FWD'
- Display at (4, 6)
- Text = 'Clear WRT'
- Display at (3, 7)
- Text = 'Automation'
- Display at (4, 7)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 8)
- Text = ''
- Display at (4, 8)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 9)
- Text = 'LOOP'
- Display at (4, 9)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 10)
- Text = 'PUNCH'
- Display at (4, 10)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 11)
- Text = 'SCRUB'
- Display at (4, 11)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 12)
- Text = ''
- Display at (4, 12)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 13)
- Text = ''
- Display at (4, 13)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 14)
- Text = 'RE-DO'
- Display at (4, 14)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 15)
- Text = 'SAVE'
- Display at (4, 15)
((None)) _fDispEditBtns :
- Text = 'ZOOM /'
- Display at (1, 2)
- Text = 'SCROLL'
- Display at (2, 2)
- Text = 'EDIT'
- Display at (1, 3)
- Text = 'Enable'
- Display at (2, 3)
- Text = 'SNAP'
- Display at (1, 4)
- Text = 'To Grid'
- Display at (2, 4)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 5)
- Text = 'COPY'
- Display at (2, 5)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 6)
- Text = 'CENTRE'
- Display at (2, 6)
- Text = 'CROP L /'
- Display at (1, 7)
- Text = 'FADE L'
- Display at (2, 7)
- Text = '^ ^ ^ '
- Display at (1, 8)
- Text = 'UP'
- Display at (2, 8)
- Text = 'CROP R /'
- Display at (1, 9)
- Text = 'FADE R'
- Display at (2, 9)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 10)
- Text = ''
- Display at (2, 10)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 11)
- Text = ''
- Display at (2, 11)
- Text = 'SMART'
- Display at (1, 12)
- Text = 'TOOL'
- Display at (2, 12)
- Text = 'MOVE'
- Display at (1, 13)
- Text = 'TOOL'
- Display at (2, 13)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 14)
- Text = 'UNDO'
- Display at (2, 14)
- Text = 'SAVE'
- Display at (1, 15)
- Text = 'AS'
- Display at (2, 15)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 2)
- Text = 'EDIT'
- Display at (4, 2)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 3)
- Text = 'SELECT'
- Display at (4, 3)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 4)
- Text = 'CUT'
- Display at (4, 4)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 5)
- Text = 'PASTE'
- Display at (4, 5)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 6)
- Text = 'SPLIT'
- Display at (4, 6)
- Text = '< < <'
- Display at (3, 7)
- Text = 'LEFT'
- Display at (4, 7)
- Text = 'V V V '
- Display at (3, 8)
- Text = 'DOWN'
- Display at (4, 8)
- Text = '> > >'
- Display at (3, 9)
- Text = 'RIGHT'
- Display at (4, 9)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 10)
- Text = ''
- Display at (4, 10)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 11)
- Text = ''
- Display at (4, 11)
- Text = 'SELECT'
- Display at (3, 12)
- Text = 'TOOL'
- Display at (4, 12)
- Text = 'NEW'
- Display at (3, 13)
- Text = 'TRACK'
- Display at (4, 13)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 14)
- Text = 'RE-DO'
- Display at (4, 14)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 15)
- Text = 'SAVE'
- Display at (4, 15)
((None)) _fDispClear :
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 2)
- Text = ''
- Display at (2, 2)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 3)
- Text = ''
- Display at (2, 3)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 4)
- Text = ''
- Display at (2, 4)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 5)
- Text = ''
- Display at (2, 5)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 6)
- Text = ''
- Display at (2, 6)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 7)
- Text = ''
- Display at (2, 7)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 8)
- Text = ''
- Display at (2, 8)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 9)
- Text = ''
- Display at (2, 9)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 10)
- Text = ''
- Display at (2, 10)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 11)
- Text = ''
- Display at (2, 11)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 12)
- Text = ''
- Display at (2, 12)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 13)
- Text = ''
- Display at (2, 13)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 14)
- Text = ''
- Display at (2, 14)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 15)
- Text = ''
- Display at (2, 15)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 2)
- Text = ''
- Display at (4, 2)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 3)
- Text = ''
- Display at (4, 3)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 4)
- Text = ''
- Display at (4, 4)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 5)
- Text = ''
- Display at (4, 5)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 6)
- Text = ''
- Display at (4, 6)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 7)
- Text = ''
- Display at (4, 7)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 8)
- Text = ''
- Display at (4, 8)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 9)
- Text = ''
- Display at (4, 9)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 10)
- Text = ''
- Display at (4, 10)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 11)
- Text = ''
- Display at (4, 11)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 12)
- Text = ''
- Display at (4, 12)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 13)
- Text = ''
- Display at (4, 13)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 14)
- Text = ''
- Display at (4, 14)
- Text = ''
- Display at (3, 15)
- Text = ''
- Display at (4, 15)
((None)) _fDispACTNavBtns :
- Text = 'Hide'
- Display at (1, 2)
- Text = 'AZ Display'
- Display at (2, 2)
- Text = 'Show'
- Display at (1, 3)
- Text = 'Plugin'
- Display at (2, 3)
- Text = ' < < <'
- Display at (1, 4)
- Text = 'PREV'
- Display at (2, 4)
- Text = ' > > >'
- Display at (1, 5)
- Text = 'NEXT'
- Display at (2, 5)
- Text = 'First in'
- Display at (1, 6)
- Text = 'PRO CHAN'
- Display at (2, 6)
- Text = 'First in'
- Display at (1, 7)
- Text = 'FX Bin'
- Display at (2, 7)
- Text = 'First in'
- Display at (1, 8)
- Text = 'Synth Rack'
- Display at (2, 8)
- Text = 'ACT '
- Display at (1, 9)
- Text = 'LEARN?????'
- Display at (2, 9)
- Text = 'ACT'
- Display at (1, 10)
- Text = 'LOCK ?????'
- Display at (2, 10)
- Text = ''
- Display at (1, 11)
- Text = ''
- Display at (2, 11)
- Text = 'Bank'
- Display at (1, 12)
- Text = '1'
- Display at (2, 12)
- Text = 'Bank'
- Display at (1, 13)
- Text = '2'
- Display at (2, 13)
- Text = 'Bank'
- Display at (1, 14)
- Text = '3'
- Display at (2, 14)
- Text = 'Bank'
- Display at (1, 15)
- Text = '4'
- Display at (2, 15)
((None)) _fOn NameMon(_Ch) :
'BtnMode:Transport' - Text = ''
'BtnMode:Transport' - Display at (3, _Ch+2) *
- GlobalMode == ACT
'Last action:OK' - Parameter name
'Last action:Failed' - Text = ''
- Display at (3, _Ch+2)
((None)) _fCh Val Mon(_Ch) :
'_Local:On' - Undefined *
- 'Value(_Ch)' from MIDI value, set engine state
- Send(_Ch) -> Yes, set engine state
- Reset _fCh Feedback(_Ch) : : Timer, and trigger it
- Text = ''
'GlobalMode:ACT' - Parameter value
- Display at (6, _Ch+2)
((None)) _fCh Name Mon(_Ch) :
- Text = ''
'GlobalMode:ACT' - Parameter name
- Display at (5, _Ch+2)
(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 2 ) EQ Input 02 :
...
- Value < 68
'Last action:OK' - Call ((None)) Enc_F Lo-Mid : *
Good afternoon/evening,
Quote from: azslow3 on June 01, 2017, 03:33:18 PM
Quote from: Linzmeister on May 30, 2017, 02:59:49 PM
This solved most of the false SElections, but there were a few instances after these insertions when Selected channel changed when it shouldn't have.
I have not found the reason yet... please find particular sequence when that happened
I think it is related to SOLO 8, 9 & 10 - which currently have no ACT function assigned to them. It does seem to be selecting the wrong channel for a shorter time (longer than normal but not staying wrong for more than a couple of seconds) now. Probably just because I am flicking around with the solo buttons. I will start a mix tonight and see how it behaves in real world practice.
Quote from: azslow3 on June 01, 2017, 03:33:18 PM
Quote
I noticed that the ACT PREV button doesn't appear to do anything. ACT NEXT cycles forward through PC/FX bins as expected.
I send corresponding commands "as is" to Sonar. Except I do some safety checks (under some conditions, Sonar CRASH when executing these commands...).
Sometimes Sonar is unreliable there. Not much I can do.
This was repaired when I deleted the ACT XML files and started from scratch again. All good now.
Quote from: azslow3 on June 01, 2017, 03:33:18 PM
Quote
When I adjust ACT parameters from 01V, AZDisplay does not update with new values - ACT module updates knob graphics.
When I adjust ACT parameters with mouse, AZDisplay does update.
I have tried to address that. But to do so I have changed the logic behind faders feedback. So let me know if feedback is no longer as it should (not moving to correct position, fighting fingers, etc).
YUP. works a charm. AZ Display updates when moving controls on 01V.. :) No unexpected side effects noticed.
Quote from: azslow3 on June 01, 2017, 03:33:18 PM
Quote from: Linzmeister on June 01, 2017, 12:40:41 AM
I noticed that the PC LF Q (bank1) & HMF Q (bank 2) Labels in AZ Display were missing - both assigned to _Ch6.
PC Compressor not showing Dry/Wet Label on _Ch6
Sonitus Gate look ahead parameter not showing any Label on _Ch6..
Sonitus Compressor Makeup Gain not showing anything on _Ch6
Should be fixed.
yup, All good
Quote from: azslow3 on June 01, 2017, 03:33:18 PM
Quote
I had one instance when I had Selected Track 1 for ACT control, but Track 2 Compressor was being controlled.
I switched to busses and back to tracks and it seemed to sort it self out.
In current logic, only in EQ Screen focus is change to corresponding EQ when you press SEL. So if you change focus by mouse or work with Compressor/other modules, auto-focusing does not work.
Yeah, it wasn't a case of selecting the wrong plugin, but wrong channel. From memory I switched to busses and back to tracks, or went to LOCAL ON, LOCAL off and it reset to synchronizing correctly again. I haven't noticed it happening again. I will remain observant though.
I put a part of you changes into place, bugfix in Input and Solo / ON labels.
I used only one row, for me the table with 15 columns and 3 rows looks more sane that way, but if you disagree with that I will put your "2 rows per button" description back.
Technically it is done a bit different. In other modes (currently ACT only, but who knows the future...) each button display the label (value) for itself. So in case we display on state switching,
it can be overwritten by buttons own procedure. So there are functions to convert _Ch->Text, called from appropriate place.
Quote from: Linzmeister on June 01, 2017, 02:56:53 PM
I am pretty comfortable with the world of ACT and ACTFix now... What's next on the agenda??
From what I remember, we had plans to:
* defined Edit mode controls (for which you already have labels...).
* Phase
* Input/Output. How many Input/Outputs you have? There are several approaches: try to use knob to choose some from whole range; switch to next/previous by knobs or buttons; select "directly" with strip buttons (f.e. in special mode so we have 14x ON + 14x SOLO, if that number is reasonable).
* If you think 2 knobs for EQ are still faster then switching to EQ mode, we can do that (or something else with this knobs)
* "Fixing" more that just one ProChannel EQ to SEL (based on screen).
Up to you to set the priority.
Quote from: Linzmeister on June 02, 2017, 01:40:08 PM
Quote from: azslow3 on June 01, 2017, 03:33:18 PM
Quote
I had one instance when I had Selected Track 1 for ACT control, but Track 2 Compressor was being controlled.
I switched to busses and back to tracks and it seemed to sort it self out.
In current logic, only in EQ Screen focus is change to corresponding EQ when you press SEL. So if you change focus by mouse or work with Compressor/other modules, auto-focusing does not work.
Yeah, it wasn't a case of selecting the wrong plugin, but wrong channel. From memory I switched to busses and back to tracks, or went to LOCAL ON, LOCAL off and it reset to synchronizing correctly again. I haven't noticed it happening again. I will remain observant though.
Found IT!!..
I had accessed ACT via the Dynamics Buttons.. When I select a different Channel, I have to press the First In PC button to get ACT to follow Select. You gave me the answer the other day but I completely didn't understand what you meant...
Systematic operation understood.
G'day,
Is there a way to restrict the PREV/NEXT ACT buttons to stay within the current channel - Pro channel is, but FX Bin moves ACT focus to next/prev channel rather than loop back to beginning/end of current channel.
Sequence of 3 Next Button presses with 2 plugins each in adjacent Channel FX Bins:
CH1 FX 1 --> CH 1 FX 2 --> Ch 1 FX 1
instead of the current
CH1 FX 1 --> CH 1 FX 2 --> Ch 2 FX 1
In thinking through the practical operation I have mimicked your EQ screen ACT Selection onto Dynamics - but selecting the track compressor.
Then I thought further. Use Dynamics Page 1 for Compressor, Page 2 for other PC modules, and leave EQ (page 1) as EQ currently is and setup Page 2 for FX bin auto navigation.
Dynamics Page 1: Track/buss compressor
Dynamics Page 2: Current PC Module
EQ Page 1: PC EQ
EQ Page 2: FX Bin
Another screen/page combo would be required to do the same with the Synth rack..
Question:
If I have a series of 6 drum tracks and they all have a Slate VTM & VCC in FX Bin slots 1 & 2 and a gate in slot 3. Selecting the first gate would require ACT navigation (First in FX Bin, NEXT, NEXT), but I would like to be able to move from channel to channel adjusting the gates of each simply by selecting the channels.
I have been thinking about and trying to come up with a tidy preset solution. In attempting to solve it I have created 4 software states:
ACTFocus - with states of PC, FX, Synth
LastPC with states of 1-20 and unknown
LastFX with states of 1-20 and unknown
LastSynth with states of 1-20 and unknown
Unknown is the default in each case. I'm just using 20 as it should be way beyond any practical limitation.
The ACTFocus is to tell us which of the LASTXXX states to update when PREV/NEXT is pressed.
The ACTFocus & LASTXXX values are then to be used to select the correct bin and an offset when selecting a new channel.
Obviously 20 is never going to happen in a single channel.
Is there any way to discern how many plugins are in any given Bin?
When moving PREV from 1, what value do we set LASTXXX to??
How can we tell when NEXT should set LASTXXX back to 1??
Thought application:
Set ACT Focus and initialize the appropriate LASTXXX state =1 (if currently unknown) when First in PC,FX,Synth, or EQ/Dynamics Page 2 is Selected.
The incomplete beginnings of my thought process as an export follows:
((None)) _Sel Set(_Ch) :
'Selection:Invalid' - Reset _Sel Feedback : : State Monitor, and trigger it
'Selection:Invalid' - Undefined *
'IgnoreSelect:Yes' - Reset _Sel Feedback : : State Monitor, and trigger it
'IgnoreSelect:Yes' - Undefined *
'SonarStripType:Bus' 'Strip:Track' - Command 'Move Input Focus to Mains View'
'SonarStripType:Bus' 'Strip:Track' - Command 'Move Input Focus to Track View'
'SonarStripType:Track' 'Strip:Bus' - Command 'Move Input Focus to Track View'
'SonarStripType:Track' 'Strip:Bus' - Command 'Move Input Focus to Mains View'
- Select Strip
- GlobalMode != ACT *
'Page:1' 'Screen:EQ' - Filter EQ shift 0 parameter 1
'Page:2' 'Screen:EQ' - FX <any> shift (LastFX) parameter 1
'Screen:EQ' - Focus *
'Page:1' 'Screen:Dynamics' - Filter PC4K S-Type Bus Compressor shift 0 parameter 1
'Page:2' 'Screen:Dynamics' - Filter <any> shift (LastPC) parameter 1
'Screen:Dynamics' - Focus
((None)) _Solo 3 :
'_Local:On' - Undefined *
- _Ch -> 3
- Call ((None)) _fSolo Select(_Ch) :
- State <SoloMonMode> dependent Monitor
- Call ((None)) _fSolo Set(_Ch) : *
'BtnMode:Transport' - Command 'Project | Insert Marker'
- BtnMode == Transport
'GlobalMode:ACT' 'Last action:Failed' - Focus Prev.
'ACTFocus:PC' 'GlobalMode:ACT' - Prev LastPC, set engine state
'ACTFocus:FX' 'GlobalMode:ACT' - Prev LastFX, set engine state
'ACTFocus:Synth' 'GlobalMode:ACT' - Prev LastSynth, set engine state
- Reset _Solo 3 : : State based Monitor
((None)) _Solo 4 :
'_Local:On' - Undefined *
- _Ch -> 4
- Call ((None)) _fSolo Select(_Ch) :
- State <SoloMonMode> dependent Monitor
- Call ((None)) _fSolo Set(_Ch) : *
'BtnMode:Transport' - Command 'Next Marker'
- BtnMode == Transport
'GlobalMode:ACT' 'Last action:Failed' - Focus Next
'ACTFocus:PC' 'GlobalMode:ACT' - Next LastPC, set engine state
'ACTFocus:FX' 'GlobalMode:ACT' - Next LastFX, set engine state
'ACTFocus:Synth' 'GlobalMode:ACT' - Next LastSynth, set engine state
- Reset _Solo 4 : : State based Monitor
((None)) _Solo 5 :
'_Local:On' - Undefined *
- _Ch -> 5
- Call ((None)) _fSolo Select(_Ch) :
- State <SoloMonMode> dependent Monitor
- Call ((None)) _fSolo Set(_Ch) : *
'BtnMode:Transport' - Command 'Go to the time of the last event'
- BtnMode == Transport -> _YesNo
'GlobalMode:ACT' '_YesNo:No' - Selected Strip Volume
'GlobalMode:ACT' '_YesNo:No' - Filter <any> shift 0 parameter 1
'GlobalMode:ACT' '_YesNo:No' - Focus
'GlobalMode:ACT' - LastPC -> 1
'GlobalMode:ACT' - ACTFocus -> PC
- Reset _Solo 5 : : State based Monitor
((None)) _Solo 6 :
'_Local:On' - Undefined *
- _Ch -> 6
- Call ((None)) _fSolo Select(_Ch) :
- State <SoloMonMode> dependent Monitor
- Call ((None)) _fSolo Set(_Ch) : *
'BtnMode:Transport' - Command 'Clear all automation write enables'
- BtnMode == Transport -> _YesNo
'GlobalMode:ACT' '_YesNo:No' - Selected Strip Volume
'GlobalMode:ACT' '_YesNo:No' - FX <any> shift 0 parameter 1
'GlobalMode:ACT' '_YesNo:No' - Focus
'GlobalMode:ACT' - LastFX -> 1
'GlobalMode:ACT' - ACTFocus -> FX
- Reset _Solo 6 : : State based Monitor
((None)) _Solo 7 :
'_Local:On' - Undefined *
- _Ch -> 7
- Call ((None)) _fSolo Select(_Ch) :
- State <SoloMonMode> dependent Monitor
- Call ((None)) _fSolo Set(_Ch) : *
'BtnMode:Transport' - Command 'Edit | Select | From = Now'
- BtnMode == Transport -> _YesNo
'GlobalMode:ACT' '_YesNo:No' - Synth <any> shift 0 parameter 1
'GlobalMode:ACT' '_YesNo:No' - Focus
'GlobalMode:ACT' - LastSynth -> 1
'GlobalMode:ACT' - ACTFocus -> Synth
- Reset _Solo 7 : : State based Monitor
I hope that I have understood your idea right, and so the implementation attempt.
Please install b366, it has "find last plug-in" addition required for "previous" button to work.
So, it should (I could easily introduce some bug here) function with 3 ACT submodes:
- EQ Page 1 - focus ProChannel EQ of current strip
- Comp Page 1 - focus ProChannel Comp of current strip
- EQ/Comp other pages - focus selectable plug-in type and number for current strip (except Synth).
In all 3 modes, except selectable Synth, preset tries to focus corresponding plug-in/PC Module for Current strip. Also it follows current strip changes (from surface and mouse).
In selectable mode, if corresponding plug-in/module could not be found (f.e. wen strip has less FXes), preset tries to focus the first plug-in/module (in the strip).
If there is no plug-ins of corresponding type (f.e. strip has no FX at all), focus WILL NOT BE CHANGED (I do not know how to "void" the mapping...) and stay where it was before.
Next/Previous and Plug-in type buttons are inactive in EQ/Comp mode.
Plug-in type buttons LEDs indicate current type when in Selectable mode. No from them light in EQ/Comp modes (as the indication they are inactive).
Next/Prev should be circular.
PS I have tried 2 approaches to focus PC/FX. I have found "direct" approach buggy in X2. There is "side effect" from the second method, Sonar is shortly "reseting" ACT context when switching between strips, especially if PC module had the focus (probably since PC Gui for corresponding strip is changed to the new strip... so till new context is set there is no context). It can happened that faders with move a little "in wrong direction" when switching strips in ACT mode (during Sonar switching to "no context -> value 0" and then to "new context -> target value"). If that is the case, I can try to disable motors for short time. So let me know if i should try to do that.
Hi,
I had a suspicion I was missing a preset on a previous post, but it was good to spend some more time actually mixing instead of testing the preset now that you have given me so much functionality.
Quote from: azslow3 on June 02, 2017, 02:42:27 PM
I put a part of you changes into place, bugfix in Input and Solo / ON labels.
I used only one row, for me the table with 15 columns and 3 rows looks more sane that way, but if you disagree with that I will put your "2 rows per button" description back.
Technically it is done a bit different. In other modes (currently ACT only, but who knows the future...) each button display the label (value) for itself. So in case we display on state switching,
it can be overwritten by buttons own procedure. So there are functions to convert _Ch->Text, called from appropriate place.
That looks great. I just used 2 rows because the pre-existing information was already laid out that way..
Quote from: azslow3 on June 06, 2017, 06:07:38 PM
If there is no plug-ins of corresponding type (f.e. strip has no FX at all), focus WILL NOT BE CHANGED (I do not know how to "void" the mapping...) and stay where it was before.
That is completely understandable. I was not sure what to do in this instance either. Leaving at last plugin sounds good. When I get further into a mix I will see if there are any down sides to this approach.
Quote from: azslow3 on June 06, 2017, 06:07:38 PM
Next/Previous and Plug-in type buttons are inactive in EQ/Comp mode.
Plug-in type buttons LEDs indicate current type when in Selectable mode. No from them light in EQ/Comp modes (as the indication they are inactive).
Next/Prev should be circular.
That is perfect!. Indicates and circular navigation within a channel.. Very nicely done.
Quote from: azslow3 on June 06, 2017, 06:07:38 PM
PS I have tried 2 approaches to focus PC/FX. I have found "direct" approach buggy in X2. There is "side effect" from the second method, Sonar is shortly "reseting" ACT context when switching between strips, especially if PC module had the focus (probably since PC Gui for corresponding strip is changed to the new strip... so till new context is set there is no context). It can happened that faders with move a little "in wrong direction" when switching strips in ACT mode (during Sonar switching to "no context -> value 0" and then to "new context -> target value"). If that is the case, I can try to disable motors for short time. So let me know if i should try to do that.
No, I don't see any fader movements that seem out of place. I think that the motors take longer to respond than the MIDI messages take to transmit.
I have actually started to mix a few songs. I did experience a few crashes, but I can't say that they are related to the plugin or the preset. More observation required to ascertain what is causing the crashes.
Quote from: Linzmeister on June 07, 2017, 02:39:22 PM
I have actually started to mix a few songs. I did experience a few crashes, but I can't say that they are related to the plugin or the preset. More observation required to ascertain what is causing the crashes.
I had several kinds of Sonar crashes:
1) plug-ins... probably 90% of all crashes was inside (or coursed by) VST plug-ins
2) Sonar itself. Another 5%. Greatly reduced on X1 -> current Platinum way
3) 4.9% from Sonar crashes "inducted" by AZ Controller. Known cases are workarounded in AZ Controller code.
4) 0.1% from AZ Controller. I remember 2 critical bugs in very specific cases during lifetime of AZ Controller.
But I can solve only (4) and sometimes (3), so if you can reproduce some crash and it does not happened with AZ Controller removed, that we can nail and eliminate.
Quote from: Linzmeister on June 07, 2017, 02:39:22 PM
Quote from: azslow3 on June 06, 2017, 06:07:38 PM
If there is no plug-ins of corresponding type (f.e. strip has no FX at all), focus WILL NOT BE CHANGED (I do not know how to "void" the mapping...) and stay where it was before.
That is completely understandable. I was not sure what to do in this instance either. Leaving at last plugin sounds good. When I get further into a mix I will see if there are any down sides to this approach.
While looking around trying to get the ACTLearn and ACTLock working, I stumbled onto:
Compare ACT MAP == No Mapping. I don't know what it is supposed to do, but it does sound a little like void the mapping to me.. I realise it is a query not a command.. but maybe an area to look at??
I have found a bug. I can get half way to solving it, but can't seem to get all the way there:
((None)) _Solo 8 :
...
'BtnMode:Transport' - ACT Learn Toggle
...
((None)) _Solo 9 :
...
'BtnMode:Transport' - ACT Lock Toggle
...
I created Software States for ACTLearn and ACTLock.. With default values of No.
...
'GlobalMode:ACT' - BtnMode == Default
'Last action:OK' - ACT Learn Toggle
'ACTLearn:No' 'Last action:OK' - ACTLearn -> Yes
'ACTLearn:Yes' 'GlobalMode:ACT' 'Last action:Failed' - ACTLearn -> No
...
I was able to affect ACT Learn and LOCK in Sonar, but I messed up the feedback. The 01V buttons were always on regardless of Learn and Lock States. :(
Quote from: Linzmeister on June 08, 2017, 02:58:45 PM
Quote from: Linzmeister on June 07, 2017, 02:39:22 PM
Quote from: azslow3 on June 06, 2017, 06:07:38 PM
If there is no plug-ins of corresponding type (f.e. strip has no FX at all), focus WILL NOT BE CHANGED (I do not know how to "void" the mapping...) and stay where it was before.
That is completely understandable. I was not sure what to do in this instance either. Leaving at last plugin sounds good. When I get further into a mix I will see if there are any down sides to this approach.
While looking around trying to get the ACTLearn and ACTLock working, I stumbled onto:
Compare ACT MAP == No Mapping. I don't know what it is supposed to do, but it does sound a little like void the mapping to me.. I realise it is a query not a command.. but maybe an area to look at??
Where you have seen that?
By itself it can not do bad things, "ACT MAP" is the System State.
Quote
I have found a bug. I can get half way to solving it, but can't seem to get all the way there:
((None)) _Solo 8 :
...
'BtnMode:Transport' - ACT Learn Toggle
...
((None)) _Solo 9 :
...
'BtnMode:Transport' - ACT Lock Toggle
...
Yes, sorry. Should be fixed in attached version.
Quote
I created Software States for ACTLearn and ACTLock.. With default values of No.
Proper way will required some coding first... do you really need that indication? It is normally clearly visible in the Sonar toolbar.
ACTLearn in fact has no sense, to "learn" things the first action to do is to touch control by mouse. And if the mouse is already in your hands, why not click learn button? ;)
For confirmation, "Enter" is required. So again the mouse should be in your hands (or keyboard... or assigned on surface action...). The whole procedure required Start/Stop Sonar, AZ ACT Fix, etc. So dedicated button on surface make sense for so called "scratch" learning only, described in some blog by Craig.
ACTLock make more sense from the surface. I think I have to implement corresponding System State and than put it into preset (for feedback and logic, to select correct plug-in when ACT is unlocked). Not next 2 weeks, but remind me later.
Sorry for the delay in replying. I am currently focussing on a video streaming project.
I'll get back to this as soon as I can.