SysEx messages all mapping to ctrl 85

[Linzmeister]

Excellent.  Beautiful.  The fact that I could move the bus wai with mouse hinted that to me that it was possible.  And I figure instead of using an offset I could use an absolute value also..    So I can jump to any given bus when changing fader modes...  Need to verify if the bus exists in the current project - if last action ok/failed somewhere...


Today, I fleshed out the aux sends a little.  I can now control 14 sonar aux sends with the 01V motorised faders by using aux/fx screens and pages.  Something is not quite right as only physical fader 1 works.  I have to select each channel and always use fader 1.  I basically copied the Ch Volume settings and did a little edit to call next aux(x)channel(1 ... 14).


There is no feedback to 01V yet.  I'll keep going doing what I can for now, and when you have some time I'll post the current version.  I have been using the TEXT as a kind of debug/comment/reminder in areas where I know there are faults, but can't see how to fix them.  Very handy when reading through the export to be prompted where to do more research.

[Linzmeister]

Hi Alexy,


I think I have gone as far as I can without assistance.  Please see attached.

I have added a _Local state because I have noticed that when 01V Local control is ON, Sonar is sending commands to the mixer that weren't helpful.  I had to unplug the 01V Midi IN cable while I was trying to use the mixer a couple of times.  When Receiving Local OFF SYSEX, I call the _fInitDAWMode I need to put tests into the feedback routines to stop the interference.

Known Faults with version 16K:

((None)) _fCh Select(_Ch)
    - 01V Channel Fader 1 controls all 14 Aux Sends on whichever Channel is selected
    Faders 2-14 do nothing visible..

((None)) _fScreenPage :

    Successfully moved Bus WAI independant of Track WAI
    01V Ch 1 Fader and Master Fader are both controlling Sonar Buss 1 Fader.. I want Master Fader to Control Buss 1, and channels to control busses 2-15
    I have tried a couple of different ways.  I may not have deleted all the unused and irrelevant bits yet..
    I have moved the Tracks/Buss from Channel 12 Buttons to Home Screen Pages 1 & 2.  quicker to get to..

(SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 0 1c ) Aux 1 :  -  (SysEx:<43> 10 3e 4 30 0 26 ) Fx 2 :
    Setting _Ch to 25 ~ 30 for Aux and FX sends to keep clear of input channels
    Successfully moves the correct Sonar bus Fader depending on current 01V Aux/FX screen & page
[/size]    If I look at _Ch on the overview tab - it updates to 25~30  when I move an 01V AUX/FX Master fader, but [/font]((None)) _fCh Val Mon(_Ch) :[/font][/size] is either not triggering or does not display the correct value.
[/size]No Feedback on Aux/Fx tracks or BussesI mostly fixed the feedback on the Select Buttons, but it is broken again.  Out of WAI and Banking Left/Right buttons not behaving correctly.     I can select the Master Fader - which you didn't permit - rejected the selection and set it back to previous value    Can only move 1 bank right and then 1 bank left to starting at Ch 1Last time it was in the _Sel Feedback : : State Monitor routine.  but that looks like I left when I got it working.


Any Assistance greatly appreciated as always.

[azslow3]

I have started to remember what that preset is 

As I have mentioned before, taking the knowledge that we can detect Screen/Page/FaderMode, the preset should be rewritten. Brute force method is not going to work well, we can abuse Sonar (things will become extremely slow...) and we will loose the control over what is going on.
That sounds dangerous, but it is not 
I have started but not yet finished, please give me 1-2 days. I will probably break almost everything, I currently target Faders operations with Volumes/Sends in corresponding "_FaderMode".
The preset will be MUCH smaller than it is now, I will REMOVE all your "AuxYY Ch ZZ" (and such) controls, while making corresponding messages working 

But since you have asked, it make sense to answer on two from your questions:
* fCh Select is not working correctly because you should select the channel before Send (so WAI + _Ch should be executed in Aux mode as well)
* feedback is "hardcoded" to send channel volume, so even when you control AUX (Sends) it is currently sending the send value as the volume value and since Y01 is in Sends mode, it is not moving faders.

Updated preset will have only several "input" controls, f.e. all faders in all modes will be processed by "<43 10 3e 04 30 00>" and "<43 10 3e 04 30 01>". The next byte will be processed (so, 128 possible values) and calls corresponding Ch1-Ch14/15 (and some other) controls. In other words "Ch1" will be called on Volume 1, Aux1 1 ... Aux4 1 , Fx1 1 ... Fx2 1 and so on. Since _FaderMode is known (I will set it correctly on incoming message as well, just for safety, while it should be set when you change pages), there is no reason to have 14*7=98 independent controls, just 14 will work better!

I have understood that a half an year ago, but have not implemented. My bad. But unlike "Sonar for Mac", I do not say "sorry, but that is the end". Instead I say "sorry, but we will make it"

[azslow3]

Ok, that is the first test version. Many things are probably (some for sure) broken. Please just check only the part I mention here explicity:
Latest test version of AZ Controller is required, b360.

Only faders (except Master) should work!

* Switch to Local Off mode ( so it works at all)
* Switch to Home, check Tracks (14) volumes can be controlled (with feedback)
* Press AUX1, check the first send volume works (with feedback) for 14 tracks
* Press AUX2 ... FX2 and check corresponding sends are controllable (with feedback).

Please report what you observe.

Notes: master fader IS broken. Do not switch screens/pages, not yet there.  There are 6 sends in total AUX1-4 + FX1 and FX2 (not what you have defined, see later).


A bit how it works (or at least planed to work...).
* All fader input (in all modes) is processed using "Fader Input 00" and "Fader Input 01" actions. Based on SysEx, they determine which Channel control should be used (so "Ch 1" is used many times!). Bundled messages (several neighbor faders movement) should be processed correctly (in all modes).
* HWFaderMode state is really Hardware dependent state. That is not the same a your "_FaderMode". It is important to understand there are (and should be) different. The first determines from where we expect signal from 01y and where we should send feedback. The second can (currently not!) determines what faders should control in Sonar. While there is some logical binding between them (you are going to control sends by faders in AUX hardware mode), that is the only connection. Later I will adopt your "_FaderMode".
* most tricky part is the feedback, based on "HWFaderMode" and "_Ch", it should compose correctly bundled when possible updates and send them with correct (for the mode) SysEx. Bundling is not always the same, f.e. in Home mode, channels 13/14 and 15/16 can be bundled with channel 12. In other modes not.
* effectively there are only 14 (later 22) Sonar parameters are controlled for faders within the preset. Based on Y01 fader mode / page / etc. these parameters will be different. But there is only one place to change what we control and I have removed all your "AUX/FX 1...24" controls (the same will happened with encoders, once we get there).

Important questions about faders:
1) do I understand it right that AUX3 and AUX4 do not support Ch17-24?
2) when you change not "Fader mode" section screens or any pages, does that change hardware fader mode? I mean if you select Dynamics and your faders was in AUX4, do faders still control AUX4?

[Linzmeister]

That was quite a re-write.  So much new material. and very quick for the thought detail that goes into doing it.

Only faders (except Master) should work!

* Switch to Home, check Tracks (14) volumes can be controlled (with feedback)
* Press AUX1, check the first send volume works (with feedback) for 14 tracks
* Press AUX2 ... FX2 and check corresponding sends are controllable (with feedback).

Please report what you observe.


Notes: master fader IS broken.

All Input faders control tracks... and the CH Master controls Sonar Master too..

Initially Aux 4  Fader Mode did nothing visible.  On the Overview Tab, I noticed in Faders Input 00:  after Compare Value<87, it was setting to Aux 3 instead of Aux 4.  3 mouse clicks later and Aux 4 was working.
After that one edit All Aux/FX fader modes controlled Sonar Aux send 1-6 rotaries on all 14 tracks.
No Motor feedback on any faders in any mode - Track volume or sends
[/size]

Important questions about faders:
1) do I understand it right that AUX3 and AUX4 do not support Ch17-24?
2) when you change not "Fader mode" section screens or any pages, does that change hardware fader mode? I mean if you select Dynamics and your faders was in AUX4, do faders still control AUX4?

[/size]1) Correct Ch 17-24 only have Aux 1&2, FX 1&2, 2 Bands of EQ (Low & High), and NO Dynamics processing at all.  These channels normally correspond to the Optional I/O card installed in the back panel. 
[/size]2)  Excellent Question !!  NO. [/size]The top 8 Screen buttons do not have LEDs. 
[/size]                Pressing any of the first 8 buttons lights the HOME LED [/size]and the faders revert to channel volume.

[azslow3]

That was quite a re-write.  So much new material. and very quick for the thought detail that goes into doing it.

Ya... but with some immediate bugs 

Initially Aux 4  Fader Mode did nothing visible.  On the Overview Tab, I noticed in Faders Input 00:  after Compare Value<87, it was setting to Aux 3 instead of Aux 4.  3 mouse clicks later and Aux 4 was working.
After that one edit All Aux/FX fader modes controlled Sonar Aux send 1-6 rotaries on all 14 tracks.

You understand how it works! Brilliant!

No Motor feedback on any faders in any mode - Track volume or sends

Agrr... As you know, since I do not have the device, the only way to check the feedback for me is sending some different SysExes back to AZ Controller (different to avoid triggering  again and loop back means they are not sent to real device). I forgot to change that to real behavior, sorry. Try attached preset.

Correct Ch 17-24 only have Aux 1&2, FX 1&2, 2 Bands of EQ (Low & High), and NO Dynamics processing at all.  These channels normally correspond to the Optional I/O card installed in the back panel. 

Do you mean Faders are in general used in EQ and Dynamics mode? That is not yet accounted in my current preset. I have thought EQ/Comp are controlled by encoders only... Which message Channel 1 fader sends in EQ mode(s)?

Excellent Question !!  NO.
The top 8 Screen buttons do not have LEDs.
Pressing any of the first 8 buttons lights the HOME LED and the faders revert to channel volume.

Good to know (and I have to remember that). But that is in contradiction to my previous guess. If faders are revert to volume when you press EQ, how they control EQ then?

Sorry, I remember I have tried to understand the documentation. But that aspects are not clearly explained there, I mean which controls switch to which mode after when buttons pressed.
For us that is very important.


Let me try to explain the big picture one more time, but in another words (such view came into my mind today morning):
* Y01 "think" it controls another Y01 when we use it with Sonar, so it assumes that "remove" mixer has all >>1000 parameters directly accessible to be controlled
* in practice, Y01 can control only limited set of parameters at any particular time, that number is equal to the number of real physical controls on it
* the "game changing" discovery your did was the fact Y01 also transfer NOT parameter changing operations, like selection of screen, pages and fader modes. Probably to "mirror" or remote mixer, but that way we always KNOW which parameters are currently behind every physical control at any particular time (well... I do not really know at the moment exact relation, my questions are about that)
* to "trick" Y01, AZ Controller should imitate the whole set (1000+) of possible parameters. But at any particular time, only currently controllable parameters are relevant. As long as we know which subset is required, only these parameters should be updated. While strait forward  for control from Y01 (Y01 always specify EXACT parameter it is changing) that is tricky for the feedback. If "AZ Controller" think faders are controlling Volume, it will send the feedback throw "Y01 channel volume" parameters. And in case your Y01 faders are in fact in AUX1 mode, they will not move.
* using this approach, it is possible to map an arbitrary Sonar parameter to physical control DIRECTLY, so independent in which mode Y01 is, it is possible to use Fader 1 to control let say Track 101 Pan. For incoming messages, any incarnation which can come from physical Fader 1 is just routed to the same AZ Controller Logical Control. For the feedback, the very same control sends required value throw whatever Y01 parameter Fader 1 currently controls (Volume, AUX1, FX1, etc.). Since we know the current, there is no need to update ALL parameters which can be controlled by the Fader 1 (which will probably saturate MIDI connection quickly)
* COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT from the previous sentences, incoming signal from mode/page/screen switches can be arbitrary used to define which Sonar parameter Fader 1 should control (your ScreenPage list). Making the definition simple and flexible

So the first, most boring and most difficult part is establish a preset which can BYPASS Y01 mode, with one logical control per physical control. The rest is a matter of 1-2 hours 


I hope that short explanation is more clear then my previous attempts.

[Linzmeister]

12:30 am here.  Will test tomorrow night.

I will have to read your questions carefully to answer truthfully..  Not something quick for a tired head..

Eq is on rotary Encoders.  Faders do not send eq ever!

[Linzmeister]

I managed to sneak out to the studio for half an hour this morning.

The last version has good feedback.  I  did a quick automation pass using a ruler to get adjacent channel commands generated and switched fader mode to Aux 1 - repeated with ruler and then replayed the automation.  All good. Input Faders respond to track and Send 1 volume feedback as expected - I am going to assume that other sends are also ok for now too - will test more thoroughly tonight. 

Ya... but with some immediate bugs 

which were easily fixed.

Do you mean Faders are in general used in EQ and Dynamics mode? That is not yet accounted in my current preset. I have thought EQ/Comp are controlled by encoders only... Which message Channel 1 fader sends in EQ mode(s)?
...
Good to know (and I have to remember that). But that is in contradiction to my previous guess. If faders are revert to volume when you press EQ, how they control EQ then?

As I pre-empted last night..  All Pan and EQ messages come from rotary encoders, never the faders.

There are Option settings to automatically show PAN and EQ screens when Pan or EQ controls are touched (See Preferences Picture - pg 203 of the user manual).  I have turned these options off - so that we can use PAN encoder x1(x14) and EQ encoders x13(x14) and 1x EQ Switch(x14) with 9 screens [Utility, MIDI, Setup, View, Dynamics, EQ/Att, Display, Pan/Routing, Home].  I will see if changing those options sends MIDI out.  If it does, we should add them to _fInitDAWMode.

When the Options are set as above: Pan and EQ messages (for selected track), and 14 track volume settings are all accessible at the same time - in 9 screens with multiple pages each:  first 8 at the top, plus HOME.

I will have to verify tonight.. but I think that in Aux/FX Fader Modes, Pan and EQ should still be available for Selected track which is why I created _PanMode Software State, to make it possible to access HPF, LPF, Pan Aux/FX sends in Sonar.. the 01V only has mono sends internally.  We may want to create _EQMode.. later.. to use for ACT rotaries (??)

Sorry, I remember I have tried to understand the documentation. But that aspects are not clearly explained there, I mean which controls switch to which mode after when buttons pressed.
For us that is very important.

Whenever we change fader mode or screen/page, A SELECT message is sent immediately. 

As the front panel indicates (See Fader Modes Picture - page 14 of the User Manual) - only Fader mode changes when touching the buttons with grey shading - Pan and EQ stay as Pan and EQ.  In all other screens, faders are the same as home. 

Option I/O is Ch 17-24,  which appears on faders 1-8
Remote is fully user configurable - either internal parameters like bus 1-4, Reverb Decay Time,  GM CC 1-127 - depending on which Page and internal Bank are chosen (pgs 194, 236, 238 of the user manual)

* Y01 "think" it controls another Y01 when we use it with Sonar, so it assumes that "remove" mixer has all >>1000 parameters directly accessible to be controlled
* in practice, Y01 can control only limited set of parameters at any particular time, that number is equal to the number of real physical controls on it

yes, About 1400 internal parameters.. If it was an analog mixer it would be quite large...  but with 2 hands I can only change parameters a few at a time.

Since we know the current, there is no need to update ALL parameters which can be controlled by the Fader 1 (which will probably saturate MIDI connection quickly)

OK, you are looking to avoid crashing into the data throughput of  MIDI spec (3125 bytes per second).

* COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT from the previous sentences, incoming signal from mode/page/screen switches can be arbitrary used to define which Sonar parameter Fader 1 should control (your ScreenPage list). Making the definition simple and flexible

So the first, most boring and most difficult part is establish a preset which can BYPASS Y01 mode, with one logical control per physical control. The rest is a matter of 1-2 hours 

I hope that short explanation is more clear then my previous attempts.

Understood.

I read another post here about 01V96VCM in HUI mode.  All sorted in less than a week.. 

[azslow3]

Probably I have already asked before, but I have not found in the thread... Do buttons near encoders send something?
I mean if you change from "HIGHT" to "HI-MID", is AZ Controller informed?

[Linzmeister]

Do buttons near encoders send something?

I just checked with MIDOX.. No.. They are silent.  Their purpose is to change the current EQ band for editing (Low, Low-Mid, High-Mid, High).  When the EQ Screen Page 1 is displayed, all EQ parameters can bee seen at once.  They have a visual feedback on the LCD screen only - no motors to fights with fingers, no Encoder ring LEDs..

Of the 3 parameters per PEQ Band, only 2 have Physical hardware controls.. Freq & Gain.  The virtual Attenuator, Q control and EQ ON/Off button are only accessible via the LCD, cursor buttons and the data entry wheel.  My gut feeling says to treat them like 12 motorized faders per channel - only the currently selected parameters on the surface can send data (whether EQ screen is shown or NOT!!), but all can receive..   If the EQ screen is not shown, don't send feedback because at that stage nobody can see it anyway.

I don't do any EQ automation recording.  It is more about setting up the static mix quickly and getting away from the mouse and keyboard.  But they might be useful for ACT mode, which may record automation moves..

I will have to verify tonight.. but I think that in Aux/FX Fader Modes, Pan and EQ should still be available for Selected track

Yes, indeed, the PAN and EQ knobs always send the same parameter for selected channel regardless of  Fader Mode/Screen..

[azslow3]

Ok, I have thought so... I have already started to define 12 encoders the same way as faders. I have thought "Pan" encoder is also Q, at least for LoMid and HiMid bands. For Lo and Hi it is in position of the "band type" (not sure which values it set/received). Is that not so?

In general, what will be displayed will be incorrect since 01y internally trynslate values to Frequency, Gain, etc. Also selecting other parameters with cursor make no big sense.
My current plan is adopt EQ  mode and Pan (may be extending later). Pan really as selected strip pan, EQ mode we can make ACT (which in turn can control EQs and other plug-ins). It make sense enable faders and "On"/"Solo" to contribute there. But lets check encoders first. While without motor, they still will need feedback "position" to work correctly.

[Linzmeister]

The Q control on screen is below the gain & freq controls..  If you were suggesting to use the pan control for Q, it would not be intuitive to have the top physical control controlling the bottom screen control..  Maybe I misunderstood what you meant..?

Navigating the Q control on screen is quite intuitive.  With the cursor on the Q parameter of any EQ band, pressing any band button, moves the cursor to the Q control of the selected band.. Quite efficient really.

The EQ controls do not send 0-127 values.  The values received will need to be scaled proportionally.  Gain, Freq and Q all send MIDI values of 0-32.  Attenuator sends 0-96.

Natively the Q control in the lo and hi bands varies throughout the normal range of 0.1 to 10, but has an added state of hpf or lpf respectively.  When being used for EQ, I was thinking of limiting their ranges to exclude the hpf and lpf midi values and scaling the remaining values - using the pan control and Eq screen and pages to set hpf and lpf frequencies as the PC eq has 4 full bands plus separate  hpf and lpf freq.  Maybe Attenuator control can be hpf and lpf slope dB/Oct  - 2 pages hpf slope, lpf slope.

The pan control only sends 0-32 and will need to be scaled too.

If the EQ screen is not shown, don't send feedback because at that stage nobody can see it anyway.

You are probably way ahead of me already and realize I was thinking poorly.  Selected channel does need Encoder's feedback when not on screen, so that when a control is moved, it doesn't do a huge jump in value..

[azslow3]

Ok, massive cleanup it still in progress (as you can see by the file size and the number of controls), nothing is really finished.

But please check Pan. For first 12 channels. It should work, with 32 max value and with feedback (the feedback you should be able to see on the display and the value should not "jump" when you switch channels). That is an important prove of concept for EQ encoders.

Also for Pan, you have defined Pan 1 .. Pan 24 controls. But SysEx they send are not continuous with numbers. Can you check what "13/14" and "15/16" send?

Also check ATT. Not sure it will work, but at least it has some definition.

[Linzmeister]

But please check Pan. For first 12 channels. It should work, with 32 max value and with feedback (the feedback you should be able to see on the display and the value should not "jump" when you switch channels). That is an important prove of concept for EQ encoders.

Setting an initial Pan value works,  Feedback on Selected Channel works.  If I select a channel and move the pan, then quickly select a different channel, everything appears normal. 

There is an unusual behavior.  Having set the Pan positions on a number of channels, changing Selected Channels with 01V - without changing any pan values, sets 01V pans to wrong values - Sonar values stay as they were set - not recording automation yet...    The previously selected channel gets feedback value of the newly selected channel (feedback sent too soon??)..  Is it possible to delay the Pan feedback when changing selected channels?

Also for Pan, you have defined Pan 1 .. Pan 24 controls. But SysEx they send are not continuous with numbers. Can you check what "13/14" and "15/16" send?

Chs 13/14 & 15/16 being stereo channels have 2 pan controls each.. 

MIDIOX Captures:
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 74 00 F7
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 74 01 F7      Channel 13 Pan
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 74 02 F7

 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 75 00 F7     
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 75 01 F7     Channel 14 Pan
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 75 02 F7

 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 76 00 F7
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 76 01 F7     Channel 15 Pan
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 76 02 F7

 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 77 00 F7
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 77 01 F7     Channel 16 Pan
 SYSX: F0 43 10 3E 04 30 06 77 02 F7

I think the easiest way to deal with that as Sonar only has 1 Pan control for all channels is when receiving input from either 13 or 14 to send feedback to 13 & 14 with the same position value so Left and Right track together... and likewise for 15&16. 

Also check ATT. Not sure it will work, but at least it has some definition.

I can't see what ATT is controlling.  I set all the ATT controls to 0, and going back and confirming their values, they were all at old values again.  Last MIDI Event was showing the values, but it does not seem to be associated with any hardware context.  Were you sending ATT feedback from another control??

I did notice that most EQ controls also controlled Sonar pan.  Only Low Gain did nothing..

Maybe Attenuator control can be hpf and lpf slope dB/Oct  - 2 pages hpf slope, lpf slope.

That would be another brain fart ..  There is no ATT control on EQ page 2 to allow sending any value..  may still work as HPF Slope though which I would use more than LPF

[Linzmeister]

A couple of additional observations:

The previously selected channel gets feedback value of the newly selected channel (feedback sent too soon??)..  Is it possible to delay the Pan feedback when changing selected channels?

1)   Manually setting PanMoved = YES on Overview Tab, not touching Pan controls and SELecting different channels does not upset 01V Pan settings..

2)   I wouldn't mind betting that they could be transmitted together like the fader position and On/Solo values in groups of 8 - given that the SYSEX values:
 43 10 3e 4 30 [control type 0-7+]:
    0 = chan 1-16
    1 = Chan 17-24
    2 = EQ Freq
    3 = EQ Gain and (Low, LowMid, half of HighMid)  Q
    4 = rest of HighMid Q and all of Hi Q
    5 = Dynamics controls
    6 = Pan
    7 = ATT
[control value]..... that and Yamaha being highly organised individuals doing things in structured ways.