Author Topic: KOMPLETE KONTROL S88  (Read 4120 times)

Offline frankjcc

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KOMPLETE KONTROL S88
« on: June 15, 2016, 09:36:45 PM »
There are only 8 touch sensitive knobs that are available to control plugins and as many banks as i could ever need.  It also has 2 rows for display and a position indicator of current set value.  I have this set up already but not in a very usable way.  What I am missing is the display readout of what the knobs are mapped to on any given plugin.  That portion of the AZ controller is beyond my comprehension. 

The next thing with this controller is that it has endless encoders but it only registers midi values 1-127.  I still have to use it like a fixed range encoder, but Thanks to you the genius mode of "Instant" it is very usable.  I am curious though, if there is a way to make this function as a true endless encoder.  In the editor software for this unit, it does not give that option.  It allows me to have the knobs function as  absolute, relative, and relative offset, but those mode only jumps to fixed positions in any plugin.

next it has a seperate midi section for the transport, I am currently using this section with the act midi controller because it is simple enough for the task and I have an extra button(loop) that I use as a shift button so I then can use the transport keys with shift for other functions.  two things I am missing using it this way. 1st the lights, the transport key can light up and I wouldn't mine if all the lights stayed on at the same time so I could see them in lower light conditions and because they are in an akward order unlike alphatrack and mcu pro which are stop play rec  on this unit it is play rec stop and I always want to hit the wrong button. I was even considering opening the board up to see if I could move the buttons to the standard postion but nahh.  2nd, there is missing options that I would like to assign the bottons to that you have available on your program.

lastly the editor allows to assign buttons to program change, I have set up bank 3 to program change for the VSTi's that allow for changing patches in this manner(I wish all of them would).  the problem is the encoder again only sends 1-127 and the resolution for the encoder is so fine that I can't change a patch without skipping over patches or fiddling extremely slow and careful just to get to the next patch that it is unusable in this state. I have a workaround for this but I was wondering if I could make the knobs feel just right for this task in program change mode.   

(for anyone else with this problem my workaround is, in the editor as I said I have a full page(3)dedicated to program change knobs because it allows for the range of each knob to be set, so on knob 1, I have the range limited to
1. 1-16
2. 16-32
3. 32-48
4. 48-64
5. 64-80
6. 80-96
7. 96-112
8. 112-127

I had to repeat that last number to start the next knob because as you go from one knob to the next the program does not change until you turn a knob and it will simply skip the next patch.  I am used to it this way and it works nicely, because you can go to any position of the 1-127 on a given knob range and and maybe audition different patches than the normal ones you always start out with.

I would like to learn how to do most of this myself so I can master using this driver because  I am always looking for the most efficient way of doing things.  I have spent days and days trying to figure this out but to not much avail.  My wife doesn't like flowers, she like my time.

There are two mode with this controller one for Native instrument stuff and a standard midi controller which is the only portion I am speaking of.
Thanks for reading
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 09:38:42 PM by frankjcc »

Offline azslow3

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Re: KOMPLETE KONTROL S88
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2016, 11:36:51 PM »
Hi and welcome!
There are only 8 touch sensitive knobs that are available to control plugins and as many banks as i could ever need.  It also has 2 rows for display and a position indicator of current set value.  I have this set up already but not in a very usable way.  What I am missing is the display readout of what the knobs are mapped to on any given plugin.  That portion of the AZ controller is beyond my comprehension.
I have not seen any documentation about sending something to this display. If known, I can help you to implement it. Otherwise you are forced to use AZ Display to see what is what (I assume you have used Startup preset for initial setup).

Quote
The next thing with this controller is that it has endless encoders but it only registers midi values 1-127.  I still have to use it like a fixed range encoder, but Thanks to you the genius mode of "Instant" it is very usable.  I am curious though, if there is a way to make this function as a true endless encoder.  In the editor software for this unit, it does not give that option.  It allows me to have the knobs function as  absolute, relative, and relative offset, but those mode only jumps to fixed positions in any plugin.
Do you have a direct link to that editor documentation? In Machine editor docs, i see "MCU V-Pot" and "MCU Channel" modes. If something like that available for S88, it should be possible to use these knobs in endless mode, with correct indication, may be touch sensitive, and with some luck, may be it can accept MCU display commands...

Alternatively, may be it can at least accept "feedback" to set the initial value from current value of parameter in Sonar. If you attach your current preset (in SPP format, not sure you can do this in this board, but you can in "Discussion"), I can make required modification to test either that is the case (simpler for me then explain how you can do this).

Quote
next it has a seperate midi section for the transport, I am currently using this section with the act midi controller because it is simple enough for the task and I have an extra button(loop) that I use as a shift button so I then can use the transport keys with shift for other functions.  two things I am missing using it this way. 1st the lights, the transport key can light up and I wouldn't mine if all the lights stayed on at the same time so I could see them in lower light conditions and because they are in an akward order unlike alphatrack and mcu pro which are stop play rec  on this unit it is play rec stop and I always want to hit the wrong button. I was even considering opening the board up to see if I could move the buttons to the standard postion but nahh.  2nd, there is missing options that I would like to assign the bottons to that you have available on your program.
I suggest to setup transport in AZCtrl (in Startup preset actions are already defined). We can add "Shift"ed alternative actions and hopefully lights.

Quote
lastly the editor allows to assign buttons to program change, I have set up bank 3 to program change for the VSTi's that allow for changing patches in this manner(I wish all of them would).  the problem is the encoder again only sends 1-127 and the resolution for the encoder is so fine that I can't change a patch without skipping over patches or fiddling extremely slow and careful just to get to the next patch that it is unusable in this state. I have a workaround for this but I was wondering if I could make the knobs feel just right for this task in program change mode.   
Sonar Controller API does not allow "inject" MIDI from plug-ins, so that is outside of possibilities of AZCtrl.

From what I know, the "integration API" (the way other DAWs get extra functionality) is not open. "Native Kontrol Standard" is a label. The same meaning as Wodka "Russian Standard". That has nothing to do with standards in a common sense. Even "MIDI mode" part is not really specified "Kompletely" (another misleading label from NI). In fact event the label "NI" is misleading, "real" NI you can find at www.ni.com , they was really pioneers in controlling things by computers easy way...

Offline azslow3

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Re: KOMPLETE KONTROL S88
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2016, 12:12:17 AM »
Digging the Internet, I see some users mention "Mackie Mode" for these keyboards... If that is really true, that can solve many problems (encoders will be endless, display can show parameters, transport keys illuminated, etc). I am not speaking about MackiControl plug-in in Sonar, I have seen people mention it does not work (probably no handshake from S88 side, usual case for "compatible" devices). The point is the protocol itself which can be used from AZCtrl.

If you can switch S88 into "Mackie mode", you can test http://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,250.0.html, select "compatible" mode during preset generation. NOTE: do not forget to save your current preset before you try! it is so easy to "select preset", reset configuration, etc... and all that "kill" your current configuration instantly, without asking for confirmation I repeat, that is just to test something is working. Making good working configuration for S88 is much longer process (it has no faders and much less buttons, so it does not "fit" into standard mapping nicely).

Offline frankjcc

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Re: KOMPLETE KONTROL S88
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2016, 12:33:03 AM »
I have not seen a mackie mode for this controller with this board, I will look into further. I will test what you have suggested to see if it does work and I will report back.

Offline frankjcc

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Re: KOMPLETE KONTROL S88
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2016, 12:55:02 AM »
Ok I have tested and both the transport section and the knobs section work with the mackie control preset in AZ controller. (true)

Offline frankjcc

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Re: KOMPLETE KONTROL S88
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2016, 01:06:53 AM »
To me it looks like there may too many things to address to try to use the mackie control preset for this board.  1st things is, all 88 keys on my keyboard are assigned to differenct functions and commands in sonar. 

Offline frankjcc

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Re: KOMPLETE KONTROL S88
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2016, 01:36:59 AM »
Everything the way I currently have it will work for me for the most part.  The only thing that would be a great benefit is seeing what the knobs are mapped to, and even that not a show stopper because when ever i open a plugin that is not mapped to my liking the 1st thing I do is map the control logically with the 8 knobs.

So what I am saying is, unless other people will benefit from work involved in making this controller more customizable, I can work the way it is and thank you for all of your efforts.

Offline azslow3

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Re: KOMPLETE KONTROL S88
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2016, 08:57:47 AM »
I have not seen a mackie mode for this controller with this board, I will look into further. I will test what you have suggested to see if it does work and I will report back.
From "Mackie mode", important questions are:
1) can you switch just encoders into it? I guess "Mackie mode" is a template where they are mapped that way. If yes, you can modify your own configuration (configure them as "Mackie V-Pots") and I can modify your preset to use endless encoders as endless encoders (make sense to define "Shift" button also, for "coarse" and "fine" resolutions). You have asked either that is possible in your first post
2) could you see something on display in "Mackie mode"? If yes, S88 accept MCU display commands and I can modify your preset to make use of that (show parameter names)

Ok I have tested and both the transport section and the knobs section work with the mackie control preset in AZ controller. (true)
To me it looks like there may too many things to address to try to use the mackie control preset for this board.  1st things is, all 88 keys on my keyboard are assigned to differenct functions and commands in sonar. 
Transport section also clash with "normal keys" (all buttons on MCU are "keys"). But only channel 1 is used, so if you can switch keys to "Channel 2", they will not be intercepted as  MCU buttons.
In any case, you do not need the whole board in Mackie Mode, just knobs and display. With transport that is a big question, you have asked for a possibility to illuminate buttons, but MC mode can clash with keys.  We need some tests to change that works in CC/MMC (normal) modes.

Everything the way I currently have it will work for me for the most part.  The only thing that would be a great benefit is seeing what the knobs are mapped to, and even that not a show stopper because when ever i open a plugin that is not mapped to my liking the 1st thing I do is map the control logically with the 8 knobs.

So what I am saying is, unless other people will benefit from work involved in making this controller more customizable, I can work the way it is and thank you for all of your efforts.
It is up to you to decide either you spend time on that. I can only guess some ways based on documentation/internet posts and modify your current preset to make use of "features". Configuring S88, checking my guesses, proposing functionality and testing the result is going to be "your job". I do not have and do not have plant to buy this board, but may be other users are ready to participate in your part of the job  ;)

Offline frankjcc

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Re: KOMPLETE KONTROL S88
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2016, 06:17:46 PM »
Thank you for your reply, I am most certainly ready to do "my job".  I just see so many issues that I don't want to use your time....sorry just got a call to work 75mi away so I will finish this post this evening chicago time.