Author Topic: Yamaha Motif 6  (Read 5635 times)

Offline balinas

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Yamaha Motif 6
« on: February 27, 2017, 02:55:39 AM »
Alexey,

I have an older Yamaha Motif 6 keyboard.  Still works great.  I have it connected to my computer via USB.  Win10 and Sonar both recognize it, and I can input/output midi notes into Sonar PLT. The manual says it can be used as a control surface with Sonar (probably a much older version of Sonar), but I have never been able to get it to connect to Sonar to use in that fashion.

Is it somehow possible to use AZController to connect it to Sonar PLT?  Not that it is too important now that I am connected via OSC and Touch OSC, but kind of for a historical satisfaction basis to somehow finally to get it to connect.  Actually this would be a huge event for all MOTIF users!

If not, that is ok as well. 

thanks for your consideration. Attached is a copy of the MOTIF manual.

-Bart
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 08:23:32 PM by balinas »

Online azslow3

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Re: Yamaha Motif 7
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2017, 10:01:21 AM »
Hello Bart.

There is no concrete MIDI messages specification in the documentation, but whatever messaged Motif produce, AZ Controller can deal with them. That can be out of the box but in some cases "tuning" is required in the lower part of the Options part (during learning only, so AZ Controller recognize RPN/NRPN as such).

I suggest you to try Startup Preset (see description and/or watch my YouTube video). Set the number of channels to 4. There are 4 sliders and 4 knobs. It is better to use other buttons for specific perpose (mode/bank switching, etc.).

I recommend to use only one layout for faders, knobs and buttons at the beginning.

It should be checked what Motif is doing with "control mode switches" (mute/solo, fader banks). May be controls in question send other MIDI messages when switched, may be switch just send a message and DAW should "switch" itself. Both supported in AZ Controller but configuration is different.
Also multi-layer knobs/faders which send different MIDI messages require special configuration to work correctly in catch/instant/endless modes (explained in the manual, but I have no tutorial).

On picture I can see that buttons have LEDs. Is that so? In this case that probably support feedback. That is not included in Startup Preset (too many variations how it works with concrete devices), but that can be added (I have a tutorial for that, but it is "advanced").

You can try yourself or we can do this together online (TeamViewer + Skype). Basic functionality (like described in the Motif documentation) we can do within 15-30min.

Offline balinas

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Re: Yamaha Motif 7
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2017, 07:19:51 PM »
So I have setup AZ Controller to work with Motif using the 'start up preset.'  4 channels.  I see movement in the 'last MIDI event' box with the 4 sliders, 4 knobs, and several of the buttons. I will need to sit with what to assign these. 

I do not see any movement in 'last MIDI event' with the transport buttons on the Motif. Except that occasionally I will see a 'Last MIDI event' of Ch 16 CC66 Value 0, when letting off of the stop button.  This is not consistent.   I did leave the 'transport' checked in the start up preset. 

The LED's are on the REC and PLAY buttons, as well as on the SONG, PATTERN, and MASTER buttons.  There is also a REMOTE CONTROL button that has an LED that flashes when pushed.  When this button is flashing, no MIDI changes are seen on the 'last MIDI event.'

So we have some functionality! 

I will continue to play with this some more.

thanks,

Bart

Online azslow3

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Re: Yamaha Motif 7
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2017, 07:57:08 PM »
If you do not see Last MIDI event for transport buttons, that is not good...

Check in Sonar preferences, for MIDI recording, that you are not filtered out some message types (like SysEx). By logic that should not influence Control Surfaces, but in practice that setting influence them.
Check that Motif has no other MIDI "devices", may be it sends them throw different device?
I have not dig the documentation deep... theoretically in "MIDI Sync" mode these buttons can do something else. Or other modes influence that.

There can be a bug in AZ Controller... You can try to find which message type these buttons are really sending (if they do in current mode) using some MIDI sniffer, like MIDIox. As I have written before, theoretically AZ Controller should be able to recognize any MIDI messages. But practically not all of them was tested.

Offline balinas

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Re: Yamaha Motif 6
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2017, 01:11:32 AM »
I actually have a MOTIF6, not a MOTIF7, which has a slightly longer keyboard.  Other functions are exactly the same.

MOTIF creates three midi ports: Yamaha MOTIF6-1, 6-2, and 6-3.  In the manual there is minimal, if any documentation, on these ports.  Yamaha MOTIF6-1 does handle the midi keyboard notes, and this was what I was using for the connections that I found earlier: all 4 rotaries with 4 different 'banks' each, 4 sliders and a couple of other buttons. 

When I switched AZ Controller to Yamaha MOTIF 6-3, in and out, and  hit the 'REMOTE CONTROL' button, I now have transport controls that show up in the last MIDI event box.  And I have 4 sliders, but I have only 1 rotary, which still has 4 'banks.' 

Switching things to Yamaha MOTIF 6-2 doesn't appear to affect anything right now. 

So, the MOTIF does goes through at least two of the midi inputs/outputs.  I didn't see anything resembling a filtering of SysEX messages.  I will look again.

I will look on Motifator.com which is a resource of the different MOTIF products over the years. 

-Bart

Online azslow3

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Re: Yamaha Motif 7
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2017, 09:35:28 AM »
Please at least find correct picture for your device (exactly your). Is that this one? http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/keyboards/synthesizers/motif6/

Also check which Remote Template is currently selected in Motif: Utility mode / MIDI (I guess IN/OUT is USB) / OTHER / ACTLASN / REMOTE.
Try different modes (Cubase, Logic) to find what is most consistent in the "Last MIDI event" of AZ Controller (for AZ Controller it is not important which software was originally targeted!).

AZ Contoller can work with 2-4 ports, so in worse case we can just use what you have already found. But I think it is worse to check for better settings.

Offline balinas

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Re: Yamaha Motif 7
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2017, 02:14:28 PM »
Sorry with the confusion of what I have!  The keyboard I have is the MOTIF6, and is exactly like the photo for which you supplied a link.

I did have the Remote Template set to 'Sonar.' 

I will check the others and get back to you as to which is most consistent.  It was always interesting to me that in the MOTIF manual, Logic, appeared to have much more connectivity than the Sonar template. 

I will let you know what I find.

Online azslow3

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Re: Yamaha Motif 7
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2017, 03:52:11 PM »
In the documentation Yamaha mention the selection as a "template".  In the MIDI PARAMETER CHANGE TABLE (SYSTEM) there is big section about all that controls, may be it is possible to somehow modify them or at least read I do not know.

"Normal" DAWs with surface preset understand only some specific list of controls. That is why there are different "templates" with which Motif tries to imitate some other devices which are knows are supported in particular DAW.

For AZ Controller the best input is raw. AZ Controller knows about most possible variations of physical controls and can imitate anything itself. Also it "speaks" all known MIDI protocols, ranging from simple up to Mackie Control, a bit inconsistent Mackie HUI (used in ProTools) and even complicated never thought to be used for DAW control SysEx lists (like f.e. in old Yamaha 01, A&H Qu remote control, etc.). OSC and Game Controller are also supported. Only EUCON is not supported (I have not found the documentation...).

Unfortunately, I have not found what exactly Motif sends in each mode. It is also unclear either that is configurable or how to read it. In the MIDI PARAMETER CHANGE TABLE (SYSTEM) there is big section about all that controls. So they should be at least readable (with SysEx dumps).

Our goal is simple: we need a mode in which all 4 faders, 4 knobs, transport and buttons send SOMETHING throw one (and better only one) USB MIDI port. Than we are "in game". Which "Label" that mode has or how we achieve it (loading a template, configuring controls on device, editing SysEx bank) is completely irrelevant, may be with one exception. Motif tries to imitate encoders with knobs + jogger, at least in some "templates". It will be perfect in case we can avoid that.


Offline balinas

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Re: Yamaha Motif 7
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2017, 02:36:27 AM »
I tried multiple configurations of midi ports 6-1 and 6-3 with each of the 'templates' and with the 'Remote Control' button off and on. 

With midi port 6-1, and the 'Remote' on, none of the templates showed any messages.  With midi port 6-1, and with the 'Remote' off, only the 'Sonar' template showed messages coming through.  There were SysEx messages with each of the sliders, and all  of the knobs showed  SysEx messages, or CC messages.  There were also SysEx messages with the Modulation wheel and the Pitch Bend wheel.  There were NO changes with the transport buttons.

With midi port 6-3, none of the templates showed messages with the 'Remote Control' off. 

With midi port 6-3, and with the 'Remote Control' on, all templates showed some messages with the 4 knobs, all 4 sliders and the transport buttons.  But there were some differences.  The Sonar template gave different messages with the 4 knobs, but the messages were the same when cycling through the  4 different 'Knob Control Function' button positions.  In the Sonar template, all 6 of the transport buttons gave different messages, and in the Sonar template, all 4 sliders gave different messages.

The 'ProTools' and "SQ01' templates gave varying results, with slightly fewer options with several of the 'Knob Control Function' positions and Transport buttons. 

The 'Logic' template shows that each knob reacts with a different message in each of the 4 different 'Knob Control Function' positions, except that Knob 1 has the same message (Ch1 cc 10) in all 4 'Knob Control Function' positions.  Each slider gives a different message: Ch1 cc7, CH2 cc7, CH3 cc7 and Ch4 cc7. The transport buttons show different messages, except that the |< button gives the same message (Ch16 cc118) as the 'STOP' button.  Giving effectively only 5 transport buttons. 

The 'Cubase' template just about the same as the 'Logic' template, except that all 6 of the transport buttons will give different messages.

So it appears that the 'Cubase' template mode is the best, as it will allow 4 sliders, all 6 transport buttons, and 4 rotary knobs, with multiple added functions of the knobs when the 'Knob Control Function' button is cycled. 

Neither wheel gives any message in any template with the 'Remote Control' on.  No other buttons give any messages with the 'Remote Control' on or off. 

So I think we have found some usable information, using the 'Cubase' template, as all of the transport buttons are accessible. 

Forward!

Online azslow3

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Re: Yamaha Motif 7
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2017, 08:51:14 AM »
Good! You can try Startup Preset now  :)

Several notes:
1) it is by Motif design that these controls send something with "Remote" ON only. That are used for different purpose in other modes, in some of them they can even send some messages but they are not thought for DAW controlling.
2) it is by Motif design that these messages are sent to separate port (6-3) to avoid clashes with "normal" MIDI (f.e. Mackie Control Faders are sent as Pitch Bends and you do not want they "leak" into your MIDI tracks.
3) it can be that some messages looks like "fixed", so you do not see any value changes. CC14bit and RPN/NRPN using the same physical messages (CC7bit) when transferred. Automatically detection is not possible (either that was CC7 or a part of RPN), but in the Options tab you can set desired mode manually. It is required during control assignment only, AZ Controller "remembers" which mode to expect for each control and so can use combination of them (f.e. for HUI). That part is far from transparent, let be know if you have difficulties with that.
4) for knobs, if you see only "right" and "left" messages, they imitate encoders. You will have to modify "Value" actions and change "Direct linear" to "Endless" (may be with "reverse" if the direction is wrong)

Offline balinas

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Re: Yamaha Motif 6
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2017, 08:28:13 PM »
Thanks.  I started with the transport buttons. 

Do you have an easy to read reference for an explanation of the CC14bit, RPN/NRPN and CC7bit? And SysEX messages for that matter?

How would I know if the messages are only right or left?

thanks,

Bart

Online azslow3

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Re: Yamaha Motif 6
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2017, 08:53:39 PM »
I do not know any easy to read source... I have learned all that from general MIDI documentation (www.midi.org) and documentation for many controllers. Long time programming experience has helped a lot to understand that "cryptic" texts.

So I propose you try to map as explained in the Startup Preset and if something does not work we look together online.

Offline balinas

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Re: Yamaha Motif 6
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2017, 05:59:49 PM »
I will start doing that.  Not sure if you have this, but I did find a Motif 6 Data List booklet. This Data List seems to contain some of the messaging MOTIF does.    It also turns out that I had in my library a book called "The MIDI Connection."  I got it years ago, and never looked at it.  It does help explain some of the messages that are being sent through MIDI.  And I realize there is not much I can do with that. 

Thanks!

Online azslow3

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Re: Yamaha Motif 6
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2017, 09:01:14 PM »
This table I was referencing when I have mentioned MIDI PARAMETER CHANGE TABLE (SYSTEM).
But it just specify that if you do some memory dump, settings should be at specified position in this dump. Unfortunately, I have not found which settings I should see there.

But all that is not so important. If you see "Last MIDI event", try to assign it as in "Startup preset" description/video. If that does NOT work, you can post here what you see in the Last MIDI event for that control and I will make a guess what you should change.

Learning MIDI internals if for sure interesting, but please do not go as far away from music as I went... I was happily playing piano all the time I now spend for Control Surfaces and other utilities   8)

Offline balinas

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Re: Yamaha Motif 6
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2017, 08:46:06 PM »
I understand!   :)