Behringer X-Touch Compact

[Klaus]

Hi Alexey,

hope you're doing well!

I'm trying to use a Behringer X-Touch Compact controller with your AZ Controller plug-in.
It works well in Mackie Control mode with your (again ) MackieControl.dll mod, so I'm already grateful for that, thank you again for your great work!

But since I use your AZ Controller plug-in with my Edirol M-16DX, which works soo well and brought my whole "controlling Sonar with hardware" experience to a new level, it would be almost a shame not to try getting your plug-in to work with the X-Touch Compact.
(my final goal would be using both devices in Cooperation mode...)

For now, the X-Touch C. works (in MIDI mode) with AZ Controller so far, it was fairly straightforward to get all faders, encoders and buttons working.

Where I struggle is when it comes to the bidirectional part of configuring AZ Controller.
I really don't have a clue which "settings" are needed to make the X-Touch C. to respond to changes I do inside Sonar, i.e. moving Track Volume Faders, toggling M/S/R Buttons so that corresponding LEDs of the device are on/off,  and so on.

I looked into your Mackie MCU Preset ("Mack... Control") to see if I could copy the necessary "settings" but I'm a bit lost with regard to which States, Actions and everything else is needed and what not (i.e. the X-Touch C. doesn't have a display / I have no need for "VPots" because running in MIDI mode, etc.).
BTW, when testing the MCU Preset, the X-Touch C. did response to parameter changes inside Sonar (moving faders)!


Soo... do you think I can get this (the bidirectional part) to work with a little help from you?

Or would you suggest to stick with the X-Touch C. in MC mode?

All the best,
Klaus

[azslow3]

Hi Klaus,

If you plan to use both controllers in cooperation mode, I recommend configure it in such from the beginning. I do not have "preset merging", so otherwise you will be forced to recreate the configuration.

For feedback.
In general you need "Parameter value monitor" (Action "Monitor" with option "Parameter value", speed "ultra") somewhere around "Set value" Action for the control (so when controlled parameter is already selected) and then in the Feedback tab send required message.
For Faders, set Action "MIDI", <Use Ctrl MIDI>, "Value" in the Value field. The same for buttons.
For V-Pots, set Action "Prod. spec. send", "LC/MC/C4 VPot", (V-Pot number), Dot, Value+Center.

Also when the parameter is not correct (f.e. strip not exist), to "reset" the value, duplicate send action, add "Selection:Invalid" condition and set the value explicitly (f.e. "0" for fader/button, "0/11" for V-Pot).

Please let me know if the explanation is not sufficient, I will make small example.

Note that MackieControl (and so Mack.. preset in AZ Controller) has rather complicated logic. So if you want to use more than simple strip control + ACT (I mean separate FX, flip, etc.), that is going to take some time. I am working to make complex configurations simpler in the future.

[Klaus]

Hi Alexey,

thanks for your prompt reply!

Glad I asked you, because now I'm making progress!

Almost everything works now, including feedback from controller (M/S/R-buttons, encoders and motorized faders) when I change parameters in Sonar with my mouse. Pretty cool!

The settings for V-Pots didn't work at first (maybe because the X-Touch C. runs in standard operating mode (MIDI) and not in Mackie Control Mode, by intention), but using the same action you mentioned for faders, "MIDI", <Use Ctrl MIDI>, "Value" brought the encoders and LED-rings to life!

So far, so great!

Note that MackieControl (and so Mack.. preset in AZ Controller) has rather complicated logic. So if you want to use more than simple strip control + ACT (I mean separate FX, flip, etc.), that is going to take some time. I am working to make complex configurations simpler in the future.

Fortunately not, I don't want to use X-Touch for ACT, only for basic strip parameters; I will use my other controller for ACT.


So, thanks for guiding me into the right direction, again.

I still have one or two questions but I'll wait 'til next week.


Have a nice weekend / schönes Rest-Wochenende!

All the best,
Klaus

[azslow3]

Hi Klaus,

Wow, I usually have difficulties explaining the concept of feedback.

There is also "touch" concept, which is useful for touch sensitive faders. I am not sure X-Touch sends required information in MIDI mode, but that is easy to check (and if not enabled by default, may be there are corresponding settings). If some message is coming when you just touch/release a fader (without moving it), everything is ready on hardware side. Normally, "Note On" is sent when you touch and "Note Off" when you release (can be CC, but still with values 127/0). To use that:
1) define separate logical control, with hardware type "Pad" and assign corresponding message to it
2) add an Action "Touch" with options "Touch" and corresponding fader control
3) duplicate it, set condition to "Note:Off" and change the option "Touch" to "Release"
4) in the Fader control, for action "Value" change "Timeout touch" to "Manual touch".

For some types of motorized faders, feedback should not be sent when the fader is moved manually. If during/after fader movement the fader is "jumping" a bit (or fighting with finger), that is the case. Otherwise you can ignore the following. You can defined Software Set "FaderXTouched" with 2 states: "No" (default) and "Yes". Then in the "Touch" control definition, "Set state" "FaderXTouched" "Yes" without conditions and "No" with "Note:Off" condition. Add "FaderXTouched:No" condition to the "MIDI" Action in the Feedback list for corresponding fader. Note that for each fader you will need separate Software Set. That sounds a bit complicated, but some hardware expects such logic.

I am in vacation, so answering questions is not a problem (but testing anything is problematic).

Grüße aus Moskau,
Alexey.

[Klaus]

Hi Alexey,

thanks for the tips about "Touch", I'll keep that in mind if I experience problems with my current setup.

Yes, the X-Touch sends required information for "touch" even in MIDI mode (CC with Note on/off).

I did follow the steps in your manual, so I defined logical controls for "Touch" for all faders first but with hardware type "System" and after that I could go on and assigned the faders.

I did test what you said about "Touch" above (steps 1 - 4) and that worked, too.

For some types of motorized faders, feedback should not be sent when the fader is moved manually. If during/after fader movement the fader is "jumping" a bit (or fighting with finger), that is the case. Otherwise you can ignore the following. You can defined Software Set "FaderXTouched" with 2 states: "No" (default) and "Yes". Then in the "Touch" control definition, "Set state" "FaderXTouched" "Yes" without conditions and "No" with "Note:Off" condition. Add "FaderXTouched:No" condition to the "MIDI" Action in the Feedback list for corresponding fader. Note that for each fader you will need separate Software Set. That sounds a bit complicated, but some hardware expects such logic.

Fortunately the faders don't jump or fight with finger (touching and holding a fader and moving the corresponding fader in Sonar with mouse doesn't lead to any movements of the motorized fader).


Some observations about the buttons and their feedback:

One can switch each button of the device using Behringer's Editor to either "Momentary" or "Toggle".

The problem with "Toggle" is probably the same as mentioned here:

http://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,326.msg1680.html#msg1680

Switching (and saving ) corresponding hardware control type from "Pad" to "Unknown", "Rotary" or "Slider" didn't work, the result was the same as when selecting "Pad": Need to push the button four times instead of two times to toggle between i.e. Mute on/off and corresponding LED on/off.

What worked after some try and error (I have zero programming experience) was adding the action "Note (Off)" with "Value: Toggle, timeout touch" after "Toggle, timeout touch".





If a button of the X-Touch is set to "Momentary", only "Note Off - Toggle, timeout touch" is needed (without an additional "Toggle, timeout touch" before).

The flexibility of your plug-in is really great!!


BTW, I've never been able to move the faders of the X-Touch to exactly "Unity" or "0.0" when running it in MCU mode, the closest value was always - 0.1 or + 0.1 dBFS as shown in Sonar, but using AZ Controller solved that problem, as it did to my other controller (same problem), too.
I REALLY like that!


Well, sorry for the longish post, but maybe other X-Touch users might find something useful.

Enjoy your vacation und schönen Gruß aus Köln,
Klaus

[azslow3]

Hi Klaus,

The problem with "Toggle" is probably the same as mentioned here:

http://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,326.msg1680.html#msg1680

Switching (and saving ) corresponding hardware control type from "Pad" to "Unknown", "Rotary" or "Slider" didn't work, the result was the same as when selecting "Pad": Need to push the button four times instead of two times to toggle between i.e. Mute on/off and corresponding LED on/off.

What worked after some try and error (I have zero programming experience) was adding the action "Note (Off)" with "Value: Toggle, timeout touch" after "Toggle, timeout touch".

You should also duplicate "WAI Mode Mute" with Note:Off in your example.

The explanation is a combination of several definitions used in AZ Controller.
1) each Action has "Note" condition. By default "Note:On", till changed to Off. And so all actions not matching current state are skipped.
2) Note On/Off is set from incoming MIDI message. It is ALWAYS set to Off when incoming message is either Note Off (as MIDI message!) or Note with value 0 (which is also used as Note Off by many DP and keyboards).
3) Note Off is also set for other message types (CC, KP) in case the value is 0 and the control type is Pad.
4) In all other cases, Note is set to On.

So, in case a button sends Note events and it is in toggle mode, all processing actions should be duplicated. For other messages, the control type can be changed. While a bit ugly, that solution keeps configuring most usual case (momentary) simple. Also in this case "Note:Off" special processing make sense (f.e. to define "Shift", set Yes when the button is pressed and set to No when the button is released).

Cheers,
Alexey

[Klaus]

Hi Alexey,

thanks for the explanation, very helpful!
To "use" something is one thing, but to "understand" something is really a different case.
But it's getting better...slowly...

Now I have one last question:

The feedback (button LED on) of a track (strip) in focus.

I can't figure it out by myself and I'm not even sure if it's possible at all:

Track selection works with "Action>Function>Select Strip" but selecting a track in i.e. Sonar's CV with mouse doesn't show the feedback of the corresponding button (LED on = Track in focus / LED off = Track not in focus).

It works in MCU-mode, though, but it seems that Sonar doesn't send a message to the X-Touch when selecting a track, so maybe it's not possible when X-Touch is in MIDI-mode.

Or ist it?

All the best,
Klaus

Edit: I was wrong, the X-Touch does receive a message from Sonar when changing focus to another track.

[azslow3]

For that you should organize feedback the same way as for "Mute/Solo/etc.". Required parameter is "Current" (may be not the best name). You can not "set" it, but it will work for feedback LED.

[Klaus]

Thanks again, now everything works, great!

I'm really glad and grateful that you made this plug-in, so much appreciated!

All the best,
Klaus

[BuleriaChk]

Is the x-Touch preset available somewhere?

[Klaus]

Is the x-Touch preset available somewhere?

I just posted in your thread http://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,337.msg1875.html#msg1875 before I read your qustion here.

Best,

Klaus